Finding buried pipe

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   / Finding buried pipe #121  
Thank you. I love it when people to clame to be intelligent are so full of themselves that anyone who doesn't believe the same way they do must be idiots.

The same thing goes with belief in a higher power (God, Allah, etc). Billions of people believe in a higher force are called idiots by so called "people of science", just because science hasn't figured out how to prove it's existence.

Well, I haven't called anyone an idiot, and have stated that I have friends who believe all kinds of non-scientific things. I have to say, however, that you have it completely backwards. It is people who are so absolutely certain of the existence of things for which they have no scientific evidence that are, in your words, "full of themselves."

Now I didn't bring up Yahweh and Allah, you did. But since you have, lets chase that rabbit a little ways. Yes, there are billions who believe in deities (also Shiva, Buddha, Zoroaster, and a plethora of others) but that is not evidence of the existence of deities. Here is what you are not taking into consideration: the vast majority say that their own deity is real, and that people who believe in a different deity are totally wrong. They say their own deity exists, but that the others not only do not exist, they are evil lies. Not only do many consider the others idiots, some believe that the believers of the "false" deities deserve to die. This has been true of most faiths throughout history. How does one go about proving that his own deity has ontological reality and that the others are false? So citing that many people believe in deities is very unstable ground when it comes to setting forth evidence for the existence of metaphysical realities. It is not "people of science" upon whom the onus falls for proving the existence of "higher powers". Though a person of science, I do happen to believe there is something more. The thing is, I know that I CANNOT PROVE THAT. It is a matter of faith.

In like manner, neither does the vast amount of verbiage returned by a Google search constitute evidence. Each piece of writing must be examined to see whether scientific protocols were followed. Just because those who believe in water divination have posted reams of text about their beliefs has nothing to do with scientific evidence.

There are no ways to test and ultimately prove whether deities exist. Yet there are ways to test whether those claiming to be able to divine water can do so. In carefully controlled double blind studies, water witching has never been successful.
 
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   / Finding buried pipe #123  
This thread definatally makes for an interesting morning read.

I guess you can throw me onto the side of the believers. Like others here I have a pretty good success story.

My parents bought their house about 20 years ago. Never had any septic work done, and didn't even know where it was. All we knew is where it came out of the house. They needed it pumped, but this is the type that you have to dig about 2 ft into the ground to uncover the lid, not a modern system with the top lid, then a 2 ft hole alread dug to the second lid.

We had absolutly no Idea where it was, this was a 100 yr old farm house that we lived in for the past 20 and no trace of anything. Started 5' out from the house and walked perpendiculer to where the line came out, when sticks crossed, we put a stick. Did this in 5-10 ft increments until no more readings, and then worked back a little at a time to pinpoint it. Started digging with the shovel and hit the lid dead center. Interesting enough, the line went straight out about 40', made a 45* bend for about 20', then another 45* back the the same direction it was running for about another 20*.

I enjoy science and like reading about new discoveries everyday, but there is a LOT more to the world than science. Too many people believe that if science cant prove it then it aint real. Just because they havent been able to prove it YET doesn't make it bogus.

IN the 13-14th century, how badly did the people who first said the earth was round take a beating???

The first person to say that the earth revolves around the sun and not vice versa???

Just because we havent proved that there is life on other planets, doesn't mean there isn't??

Just because we havent cured aids and cancer, doesn't mean there isnt a cure YET to be discovered?

I believe in dowsing and believe that one day they will be able to prove how/why it works, technology just isnt there yet.
 
   / Finding buried pipe #124  
This is one of the most easy things to test that i can think of. It can be done with only a few hundred dollars worth of materials (garden hoses) and a dowser. In the tests where the dowsers were able to practice ahead of time and it worked for them when they knew the answer ahead of time. They agreed that the upcoming test would be fair, that the conditions were favorable for them. And then they failed the test....

Where in the heck do you come up with this nonsense about "before-hand" information?

FYI, you do not need more than a few pennies worth of coat hangers to prove that it does work...

Before-hand knowlege does not make the rods move independently as they do in an experienced dowser's hands...

You can keep citing all the "scientific" studies you want...they can't disprove physical evidence that it DOES WORK (to some degree)...
 
   / Finding buried pipe #125  
And how does evolution and the "big bang" fit in here? They are taught as scientific but have never been proven. They are refered to as theories, but taught as factual.

We use the word "theory" in regards to the concepts of how something works. One can take classes in "electrical theory". This means that you learn about how electrons flow when induced by cations and anions in a battery, or when induced by an electro-magnetic flux field created by a generator. One can take such a class without ever touching a wire or magnet. Electrical engineering students take such classes, but also do work in lab, doing practical application. In Ben Franklin's time, electricity was indeed nothing but "theory". Nevertheless, we accept it as fact today, even though we still teach classes in electrical "theory".

When Darwin observed the flora and fauna in the Galapaos, he proposed the theory that they had evolved. When Gregor Mendel bred his garden peas, he proposed a theory that traits were inherited. At those points in time, neither man knew how. Today, we do know how. Virtually all biologists accept evolution as factual due to the following. We observe DNA evolving all the time. We know that base pairs mutate. We know the mechanisms of how and why it happens. We see the genomes of things changing right in front of our eyes-in everything from the rhino virus cold germ, H1N1 influenza virus-which never existed until last year, to new dog breeds created through manipulating genes through cross breeding and new varieties of moths that show up on their own. We understand how genes are swapped and new ones come into existence through recombination of DNA in sexual reproduction. The fossil record continues to produce more and more of the connections through the flow of time. Geologic forces have buried ancient remains and many have completely decayed, so we will never recover every single organism that ever existed. Some want to say that because we don't have every single piece, that evolution cannot be. An analogy would be that a prosecutor shows a jury the record of a security camera which took one pic per second and records a murder. Shown are a man with pointing a gun at another person who is standing. The other person is then shown falling in a couple of shots and there is smoke near the gun in the other man's hand. Ballistics tests confirm the barrel and fatal shot match. The defense attorney points out that there is no frame showing a bullet in flight. Just because there is no frame made at that nanosecond, does not reduce the probability of murder to zero. There is too much to support that, and no scientific evidence to the contrary. As to reproducibility, we reproduce genetic change all the time. It appears that biochemists are on the cusp of creating artificial life from non-living things by taking the amino acids from which DNA is made up and in the laboratory, putting them together into RNA or DNA that will be able to replicate itself. Living things DO evolve; does that disprove the involvement of a higher power in the process? No. Evolution does not disprove such a thing. Could there be a higher intelligence behind the amazing universe? Science measures what is and how. It does not measure why. Richard Dawkins says evolution disproves God. It doesn't. Science sees what is happening and can also show sequence of events. There is overwhelming evidence that the Earth is 4.3 to 4.5 billion years old. That evidence continues to grow and grow. There is no scientific evidence to support the Earth being only 5000 years old.

As to the big bang, this is a far more complex situation. For half a century there raged disagreement among cosmological astronomers regarding a "steady state" universe as opposed to one that is collapsing or expanding, and at what rate. Edwin Hubble shocked the world with his discovery that the Milky Way isn't all there is. More and more evidence accumulates supporting the Big Bang. You can actually hear the big bang. Turn on analog radio or TV to a wavelength no being broadcast nearby. All that "static" is leftover radiation. Analysis of Doppler Shifts of light wavelengths shows that the universe is not only expanding, but expanding at an exponentially accelerating rate. We do not yet understand the nature of what genuinely still is "theoretical" dark matter and dark energy. String Theory is still theory. Whether there are 10 or 11 dimensions to our realm is still unclear. Whether parallel universes exist in a multiverse is still unclear, but the absolutely bizarre effect gravity has on the world of quantum physics opens the door to the possibility. Tests and observations seem to be showing that gravity somehow leaks out of one realm into another. All we can do is come up with speculative hypotheses and then continue testing to see what happens. That is the purpose for the new giant particle accelerator on the French-Swiss border. The model we have in quantum physics and the model we have in Cosmology don't fit with each other. Physicists openly admit that and continue to attempt to figure it out. That's what science and experimentation are all about: testing and observing. The evidence we currently have surely points to a Big Bang, but the details of how all that worked out are things we are just beginning to painstakingly put together. Though the universe is flying apart at an ever accelerating rate, a majority of it seems to also be turning and heading toward one spot 70 to 90 billion light years away, something much too far away for any present instrument to see. We have no idea why or how at this point in time.

Aristotle said that we figure out what's real by looking. Our eyes can be deceiving. Today we use more than eyes and ears. We use radar, sonar, infrared, ultraviolet and all kinds of other detectors to measure for us. It seems now that all matter is actually some form of energy, and that every bit of that was once contained in one infinitely small singularity, from which everything we know about sprang forth between 14 and 15 billion years ago. Could it all be an illusion? Of course. Do I exist? "Cogito, ergo sum." Rene Descarte: "I think, therefore I am." But could I be asleep, simply dreaming that all this around me exists? It is possible. Could I be nothing but a spirit, and all that I take as real simply something that seems real? Well, yea..it could be. If someone punches me, it hurts; nevertheless, physics tell me that my body and his fist are virtually nothing but empty space with atomic nuclei separated by enormously relative distances, and that the atomic particles themselves are mostly empty space. (The punch still hurts though.) So as to absolute, total, incontrovertible truth, well that's a really deep question that philosophers still wrestle with.
 
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   / Finding buried pipe #126  
I enjoy science and like reading about new discoveries everyday, but there is a LOT more to the world than science. Too many people believe that if science cant prove it then it aint real. Just because they haven't been able to prove it YET doesn't make it bogus.

You are absolutely correct. Even though science has not yet conclusively proven how Quantum Physics and Cosmology fit together, doesn't mean they don't. On the other hand, water diviners have claimed an ability. In carefully controlled double blind trials, no water witcher has EVER been able to do what he claimed he could do.

Since 1975, scores upon scores of people say they have seen Elvis alive. This is not evidence. Never has there been one of these claims documented with fingerprints, DNA, voice, or other legally accepted evidence.
 
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   / Finding buried pipe #127  
You can keep citing all the "scientific" studies you want...they can't disprove physical evidence that it DOES WORK (to some degree)...

Yep, those studies DO disprove it, because no witcher has ever been able to do what he claims in a double blind clinical trial. There is no "evidence". Your documents, filled with stuff about ESP, aural projections, and such are not "evidence". Your document even had "witches" who admitted they knew where items were placed before the so called "test" began. The fact that "witchers" pave posted lots of writing that you can Google, simply is not "evidence".
 
   / Finding buried pipe #130  
All right guys leave me put a end to this and a good laugh too.

Remember all that science they used to prove global warming ( AKA Climate change now ) And how Big Al Quote: The planted has a fever. And how we had to do something or the earth was going to burn up.

Well looks like thats been busted with fake data , and scientist that Pad the books. One of the coldest winters on record here in PA

I am a believer in the witching I can do it and have done it with wire, welding rods, apple limbs, peach limbs and willow.

And remember science has had theory's and facts on all kind of things through the years and have been proven wrong time & time again. Some time's we are to early to make a assumption and it comes back to bite us.

Good luck gents if you need water found or a pipe just remember there is one of us crazy guys out there somewhere.
 
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