Gone Back To Gear Tractor?

[Duffster]

At the risk of scoring an 'F' for comprehension on this thread, I'd like to relate an issue with hydros that I have some firsthand experience with.

The neighbor has an old IH 1066 Hydro (not HST, I know, but close for the day) that has a very strong engine but a worn out tranny that wimps out when fluid temperature rises. On a warm summer day, that 120HP tractor can barely pull a hay rake.

The cost of getting the 30+ year old transmission rebuilt is prohibitive, so they just live with it and try to limit the tractor to jobs needing a PTO mule. Seems a shame as strong as the engine is and as good shape as the rest of the tractor is, that it just can't pull.

I love the HST on my B7610 and sometimes wish my larger tractors had HST. But 30 years of usage, which is nothing to a gear tranny, could well be terminal to an HST. The parts and expertise needed for an overhaul could be more than the tractor is worth.
FWIW
Bob

What is the difference between IH's "hydro" and a modern HST?

 

[Soundguy]

The neighbor has an old IH 1066 Hydro (not HST, I know, but close for the day) that has a very strong engine but a worn out tranny that wimps out when fluid temperature rises. On a warm summer day, that 120HP tractor can barely pull a hay rake.

That's a common complaint I've heard.. some use heavier oil till it just don't pull anymore.

soundguy

 

[Bob_Young]

What is the difference between IH's "hydro" and a modern HST?

The transmission in the IH 1066 is more like an automotive automatic transmission, I believe. However, it doesn't shift ranges automatically like an automotive transmission does. I could be wrong on this, but I think it operates through a torque converter rather than hydraulic pumps and motors. If someone has the correct story, I'd be happy to hear it. Could be it's closer to an HST than I think.
Bob

 

[rdbrumfield]

Had the opportunity to have some seat time on a 4650 Kubota HST today. With the three ranges I felt it did ok. At first I had a hill to go up and it took a bit to realize that I had to back off the pedal to climb the hill. To used to full throttle on a gear rig. Should have gone to intermediate range I suppose.

Did some pretty good pulling with it and it was nice to be able to ease into a load and to get the most out of the traction without spinning the wheels excessively.

The other night I was reading about the whine of the HST and yes it does that. Overall though, I am a gearhead. It is a nice tractor, but when I got back on my rig and let out the clutch, it was just a confirmation for me that it has to be gears.

 

[jda1961]

i have a hydrostatic riding mower that i love, but in a tractor i'd have to say i'd rather have a geared transmision. a freind of mine has a hydrostatic ford 1220, and its ok as long as you don't get it in a bind, then it just sits there and hums. going up hill is another problem too, but i'm sure they've come a long way over the years. i like the shuttle transmision, but if they make a stout hydrostatic that will push a loader bucket into hard ground like the shuttle or other geared tractors i'd take one.

 

[Egon]

but if they make a stout hydrostatic that will push a loader bucket into hard ground like the shuttle or other geared tractors i'd take one.

The HST does it even better than the geared unit as you have much better speed control!

 

[ModMech]

What no one has mentioned yet is WAF (wife acceptance factor)

Not an issue in our household as my bride can operate anything from an HST (automatic vehicle) to an 18 speed OTR truck gearbox w/o any problem once she's familiar with the pattern.

I've seen her split-shift a 5+2 uphill loaded

 

[allenr]

Not an issue in our household as my bride can operate anything from an HST (automatic vehicle) to an 18 speed OTR truck gearbox w/o any problem once she's familiar with the pattern.

I've seen her split-shift a 5+2 uphill loaded

Has she got a sister who's available?

I s'pose she can reverse a trailer too.

 

[ModMech]

As well as I can

She rides a motorcycle BETTER than I do, she rides a GSXR 600, but I'm the "king" of fixing

 

[killdozerd11]

Just a curiosity poll. Has anyone actually gone back to a gear tractor, or threatened to do so, because they a.) wished to save a few dollars? b.) gotten weary of the HST whine, or c.) another reason of your own?

Not so much interested in a zillion posts by those who love their HST and wouldn't go back, that's obviously the vast majority. Just interested in hearing from those who have or are thinking about swimming against the tide.

I have posted something like this before

If you are going to PULL an implement all day then i agree GEARS is the way
and a lot of my time has been on gears

But if you do a lot of loader/scraper /trencher and even general load and tote around the place work HST is the way to go

For the guy's still rumbling about the older torque converter type transmissions that was then let it die
they were still an improvement over gears for some applications

Loader never had so much tear out power before torque converter / HST type transmissions . Not to mention cycle time going way down
Faster than a Johnson bar

Always spinning the tires crud burning the clutch and throw out bearing.

Hey remember greaseable throw out bearings
How about thermals on the 2-U CAT dozers having to pour oil on them so the friggin clutch would release when you pushed the lever to disengage and it wouldn't
How about the first time you forgot to put the trans in neutral and reengage the clutch and you use the lever to pull your self back up on the dozer
Bet you only did that once.
How about the times you had to change the clutch and throwout bearing
because the idiot that was running it didn't lock it over center

I could go on

 

[DSteiner]

The problem I see with hydros. In the old days the hydros were sized for the horsepower, today they are not. example: The Ford 1320 had a hydro sized for all 20hp the engine could deliver. Today the same frame, tranny etc has a 30hp engine mounted to it. Mowing etc the combination works great but put it under load on a plow and it is a different story. The New Holland tractor we had had two coolers at $1500. apiece before the warrenty was off. Traded the tractor the same week the warrenty expired.

Another example: Steiner tractors use a Sundstrand series 15 hydro system. Sized for 18hp max at 3600rpm. On a test tractor I saw 10,000psi with a 23hp Onan engine. Sundstrand says max psi is 5,000psi. Now they put 32hp diesels running at lower rpms which requires even higher pressures as fewer gallons per minute have to take the work. On a lawn mower it may be ok but put that on a load, pop the relief valves and watch the temps soar! Dumping 20gpm over a 2000psi relief is nearly equivalent to a 35,000btu heater stuck to the system.

If you want a lawn tractor by all means buy a HST. If you want it as a farm tractor, best buy a geared tractor.

 

[allenr]

The transmission in the IH 1066 is more like an automotive automatic transmission, I believe. However, it doesn't shift ranges automatically like an automotive transmission does. I could be wrong on this, but I think it operates through a torque converter rather than hydraulic pumps and motors. If someone has the correct story, I'd be happy to hear it. Could be it's closer to an HST than I think.
Bob

No it has swash plate hydraulic pump and motor. Yes it is a HST.

I have a 74 Hydro on my Chisholm Ryder grape harvester. No torque converter, it'll crawl around at idle.

Infinately variable from a fwd/rev lever under the left of the steering wheel and a manual Hi/Lo range lever to the left of the seat.

 

[allenr]

No it has swash plate hydraulic pump and motor. Yes it is a HST.

I have a 74 Hydro on my Chisholm Ryder grape harvester. No torque converter, it'll crawl around at idle.

Infinately variable from a fwd/rev lever under the left of the steering wheel and a manual Hi/Lo range lever to the left of the seat.

I scanned a page each from a 1973 and 1975 IH Catalogue - copied and saved to a Publisher file - but it wouldn't attach. Sorry.

 

[The Haymaker]

While you may have witnessed the sticky valve and the neighbors tractor running hot I wouldn't assume that all hydro tractors have problems. I know both of my hydros' run cool under load.

Maybe we should turn this into a "Is NH HST superior to Kubota?"

Ha!

 

[jenkinsph]

Maybe we should turn this into a "Is NH HST superior to Kubota?"

Ha!

Not following you.


After reviewing the thread, it could be simple cooling issues, some things can affect all brands. Have to keep radiators and oil coolers clean, may or may not be the issue in this case.

To make good decisions people need to be open minded, there are times when a hydro excells and times when a gear excells, people need to be able to distinguish the difference.

 

[joes_427_vette]

Alot of people just can't understand a simple question. " Did you go back to a gear transmission & for what reason " ?
I traded my tc45da for a tc55da which has gears and power shuttle. Had nothing to do with price. I'm old and usually buy what I want. The whine, loss of power, the constant attention to speed ( when not in cruise due to circumstances ) are the main reasons. With 45hp the trans and loader take a huge percentage of the available power. I feel it would take 70 hp hydro to do what my 55 gear does and I operate on less fuel.
Personal preference but this generation is shiftless and less is more to them. I wish them well at the fuel pump and the repair center.

 

[some zilch]

What no one has mentioned yet is WAF (wife acceptance factor)

i wouldnt want to base a tractor purchase on whether or not my wife can drive it. it's be the exact opposite of what i want and what i find useful. i'm going to let her take over the lawn tractor. -see below-

i have a hydrostat lawn tractor, and it will be THE LAST light duty hydrostat i ever own. it whines like crazy just mowing the lawn, whines more going up the hill, whines when its cold, has a PLASTIC fan on it to try to keep it cool, and a rock got stuck in the linkage and it wouldnt reverse until i figured out the problem. I'll stick with my rugged, proven, durable gear drives.

 

[Lyrch75]

Yes, had HST TC33. Ditched it for a TC55DA. Even if I had not decided to jump up to approximately 2x the PTO hp I would have replaced the HST with a gear unit.

Too much power loss to the hydro. Would bog down an impressive amount when I would hit grass that was just a small bit thicker/higher than the rest of the yard.
Heat issues. I would end up having use the air hose to blast the coolers clear two times per day if I was doing a fair amount of bucket work and it was dusty out.
Add into the fact that I had learned to drive tractors on full sized ag models and my muscle memory was to jab the clutch every time I wanted to change dirrection...
SIzed up again to the M7040 and am still happy with the decision.

 

[taborekle]

snip snip snip

The Kubota's HST got VERY HOT just pulling a load of logs from the neighbor's back field to our yard for splitting, there is NO WAY it would hold up to serious field work based on that and the 2 hours we spent in that field with the tiller breaking soil. It gets hot fast! Everyone knows that hot oil/transmission fuild = bigtime bad for durability/reliability.

Not to derail the thread, but hydros are counter-intuitive with the -go- peddal. The more you push down on it, the higher the gear ratio goes, and the less torq you have. IF when pulling the logs, you applied MORE go peddal rather then less, then you would have been -shifting- into high, and it could have made the transmission hot. The correct application of the -go- peddal when pulling a heavy load, is to let up on the peddal under a heavy load, slowing the tractor but applying a lower gearing ratio and more torque.

 

[wampum]

I have just traded my hydro in for a gear tractor. I really like the hydro,but with a clean screen and radiator it still over heats when it is being constantly used. Example,pulling a 2 row corn planter,after about 15 minutes its in the hot zone. It is hard to beat for cleaning a barn,but any more outside of feeding my horses,they seldom come in the barn. It was a pretty big thing for me to give up my hydro,but all I had before was gear so I will get use to the gear again.