98 5.9l Cummins 12V vs. 99 7.3l Powerstroke

[3930dave]

Hi, I'm trying to assess 2 trucks, mainly for the motors.

FIRSTLY - No disrespect implied to either motor, both seem well regarded by smarter folks than I. :thumbsup:

3/4 tons - Dodge vs. Ford: '98 5.9l Cummins 12Valve vs. Late '99 7.3l Powerstroke.

I've read up on the KDP issue with the Cummins, and am aware of the 5 speed Dodge stick trani issues.

I've started reading up on the 7.3l just now. The impression I'm getting is that the above 7.3l motor has more electronic/electrical controls than the above 12 valve Cummins (ex. the solenoid controlled (I think) fuel regulator on the 7.3l that seems to go/plug up... called the IPR if I'm getting this right).

1) While I welcome all feedback on these motors, I'm firstly trying to verify if my gut feeling (above listed Cummins is more purely Mechanically controlled) on this is correct.

2) Above 7.3l seems to be listed as indirect injection, I'm thinking the Cummins is direct injection - correct ?

I'm looking at these 3/4 tons to tow about 10k#. I tend to keep vehicles effectively forever, so am leaning towards these older/simpler diesels - mainly trying to get a sense from the brain trust here which of these two is the simpler (I guess I'm really saying easier) to maintain in the long run.

Best Rgds, D.

 

[Skyco]

Both are direct injection.
I won't comment on all the other stuff:laughing:

 

[Diamondpilot]

Both engines are great. The 5.9 is probably a little better but the overall Ford package is probably the best diesel rig ever built. Check over the frame, suspensions, look for rust, ect. Both have good points and weak points.

One other thing to check is the GVWR and GCWR of each truck. Some 3/4 tons of that era were pretty weak in these departments. Many would only carry 1,000# payload and be over weight and may have a pretty pathetic tow rating.

Just because it says 3/4 ton does not mean anything.

Chris

 

[MFRED]

I would give my right, well maybe left, arm for a 98, 12V with a 5 speed. I am not a Ford guy, but, I think the 7.3's were the best diesel engine Ford ever put in a pickup. They seemed to hold up well and were pretty reliable. Both are pretty easy to get more power out of if desired. Both will probably treat you better than a current production truck. You can't beat the fuel mileage of that era truck. With a little tweaking, you'll get better than double what a new truck will.

 

[scesnick]

Cummins, no doubt.,.. Although if I was forced to drive a Ford, I would want the 7.3.

 

[3930dave]

Thnx Skyco, Chris, MFred, scesnick

A local ace mechanic drives a 7.3 of that era.... I went to talk with him about the Cummins - had good things to say about he 5.9, points to ponder about the trani, and had a good lead on a '99 7.3.

Was trying to hold a cell call on my way thru the back country on Friday - Chrysler Canada had to go to paper records to get the specs - lost the call, will use landline 2moro, but did get a 1800lb payload spec before losing the call.

TrailerBoats.com - Tow Ratings Database

Above rates the Ford at 10,000# tow, and the RAM at 14,000# with 4.10 rear. The RAM I'm looking at has the 3.55.... main thing I want to comfirm with DC is the tow rating, I expect at least 10,000#. Consensus seems to be with the RAM is you are ultimately tow limited by the brakes, not engine - some easy fixes help though.

My local ace pretty much echoed your comments about the overall Ford package.

Lots to consider..... if I'm right, I'd prefer the mechanical simplicity of the Cummins, but I have to admit.... the OBDII scanner I just saw for the 7.3 is pretty slick..... looks like it would just plug in, and deliver many/most of the operating parameters that I'd need.

Terminator Engineering

There may be the equivalent scanner for the Cummins, just haven't stumbled across it yet.

I can wire up discrete sensors..... just often don't have enough of those 'RoundtoIts in my toolbox !

Thnx again guys....... Dave.

 

[Diamondpilot]

I would watch the tow ratings on Trailer Boats. What they do state is that is bumper pull limit and just may be a limit of the factory hitch. The 5th wheel/gn limit is higher but of no concern to boaters. I am a boat dealer and use there publications all the time.

Chris

 

[flusher]

Hi, I'm trying to assess 2 trucks, mainly for the motors.

FIRSTLY - No disrespect implied to either motor, both seem well regarded by smarter folks than I. :thumbsup:

3/4 tons - Dodge vs. Ford: '98 5.9l Cummins 12Valve vs. Late '99 7.3l Powerstroke.

I've read up on the KDP issue with the Cummins, and am aware of the 5 speed Dodge stick trani issues.

I've started reading up on the 7.3l just now. The impression I'm getting is that the above 7.3l motor has more electronic/electrical controls than the above 12 valve Cummins (ex. the solenoid controlled (I think) fuel regulator on the 7.3l that seems to go/plug up... called the IPR if I'm getting this right).

1) While I welcome all feedback on these motors, I'm firstly trying to verify if my gut feeling (above listed Cummins is more purely Mechanically controlled) on this is correct.

2) Above 7.3l seems to be listed as indirect injection, I'm thinking the Cummins is direct injection - correct ?

I'm looking at these 3/4 tons to tow about 10k#. I tend to keep vehicles effectively forever, so am leaning towards these older/simpler diesels - mainly trying to get a sense from the brain trust here which of these two is the simpler (I guess I'm really saying easier) to maintain in the long run.

Best Rgds, D.

I've spent the last year doing what you're doing--comparing 10-15 year old 3/4 and 1T PUs, gas vs diesel, std cab vs extended cab vs crew cab, etc.

One thing you might want to do before pulling the trigger is check out the cost of replacement parts, especially drivetrain, steering and suspension, and labor cost for repairs. Expensive parts like diesel injection pumps, turbos, high pressure oil pump (in the case of the 7.3L), and injectors can really be an annoyance when they go out.

It helps to read the relevant forums and get an idea of what parts are likely to need repair/replacement after your purchase.

 

[windy acers]

the 7.3's are ran by wire and computer above 1994 look behind the gas pedal all wires no linkage!!! on the 4r100 autos the torque converters go bad and sound like a can of marbels. A $1500.00 repair. I own a 99 f-250 power stroke and love it. every used truck has a reason it is for sale. just expect you will have to fix something and go with it . consider it as a truck payment once in a while

 

[Heywood Jannockitov]

...mainly trying to get a sense from the brain trust here which of these two is the simpler

With all else being equal, an inline 6 beats a V8 for simplicity. And, no glow plugs either, but a more reliable intake grate heater. Routine maint. is easy with the 5.9. I can change the oil filter from above. Only have to crawl under to drain the oil and grease the f/end. And it helps that it sits high! With Dodge not offering a 3500 SRW, the 2500 HD was effectively their 1 ton SRW.

The 2500 HD and 3500 duallie had the same tow ratings. IIRC, it was around 9000 lbs with 3:54 and 14,000 lbs with 4:10 (don't quote me though). I've had no issues with either KDP or the 5 spd manual in my 95, which I bought new. I have the 3:54's. At 100 kmh, or 62 mph the tach is at about 1900 rpm in 5th gear.
It has been a great truck and I have no intention of replacing it with anything new that is currently on the market for pretty much the same reasons you're looking at this era of diesel pickups.

 

[Dargo]

I like Ford trucks, but I state without hesitation that I'm not at all impressed by the 7.3 PSD. I'm far happier with my '06 6.0 PSD than either 7.3 PSD I had. I only had older 12v Cummins 5.9 trucks. If you want to drive a lot of miles, the 5.9 Cummins will outlast the 7.3 PSD by at least a factor of 2X. Also, if you want to talk about a weak transmission, the factory transmission I had in a '96 Dodge was WAY stronger than the tranny in the '99 Ford. My neighbor has had 6 transmission rebuilds and 3 engine rebuilds in 225k miles on his '99 Ford F350.

 

[Dmace]

Both engines are great. The 5.9 is probably a little better but the overall Ford package is probably the best diesel rig ever built.

While I do think the Ford truck is a well built chassis, I cannot agree with this for the 99 model year. Keep in mind, this was the first year of the "Super Duty" (Ram look-a-like) which was a complete redesign of the older F-series and very problematic like many first year models.

Not only is the Cummins diesel a stronger, more reliable, simpler, and longer laster engine, the body it is in was also a proven chassis that was the benchmark for Heavy Duty trucks for many years.

A 98 Ram Cummins with a 5-speed might be the most sought out truck in the used market. If you find one, get it and never look back.

 

[3930dave]

Thnx guys.... that is exactly the general feedback that I was looking for.

Specific points are well appreciated..... I hadn't considered that nuance for the Boat/Tow site before. Will get the tow rating from DC tomorrow, and will chase the F250 specs too.

I tend to think of checking consumables pricing for printers.... good point flusher ! I'd suspect the wear/tear (engine wise) pricing for the 7.3 will be higher. Flusher - did you conclude anything concerning annual mileage vs. payback on a diesel vs. gas ? Also, thnx too... I was scratching
my head late last night as to what the HPOP was on the 7.3l.

From my limited (non-pro) perspective, pretty much the last thing I expect to fail on an engine is an oil pump, but can appreciate this is likely a high stress application.

Gas is pricey enough here (Canada) that I may have no choice but to buy a diesel, and go beg McDonald's for fry oil !

One thing I need to get back to talking with the local ace about is the 5 speed stick in the RAM..... from a v. brief conversation I had with him, he knew of some lubrication issues with the 5'th gear bearing (as this turns soooo slllooowwww, there may have been cases of not enuff lube
to this bearing).... I need to re-visit this with him, as it might have only been a problem if the truck was towed (ie. breakdown). I know from reading about the nut issue with this Ram 5 speed stick,and view the upgrade here ($200 fully splined shaft) as an excellent deal. My only real concern would be having to split the trani to deal with a bearing.

(I have a friend that is pretty brutal on vehicles. Two of only very few transmissions that he has NOT destroyed both happen to be in Dodge trucks. I'd like to think my luck would be as good).

This Ram seems highly sought after.... dealer knows it too, as this truck is listed almost 50% over book. I'm not going to try beating on the price until I test drive it, and get the local ace to have a look. Fingers crossed on the tow rating....

I may checkout this 7.3 too - my local guy knows the truck, was reasonably well maintained, and just had the turbo replaced (at about 160k miles - not sure if this a normal re/re interval ?), and I know and believe why the truck is being sold.

I guess my biggest problem with the Ram is that it's on a dealer's lot..... Hmmmm.....

Thnx again guys. D.

 

[Diamondpilot]

Not being Ford Loyal here but having and new Turbo would be a plus with me on a truck this age. Turbos do wear out and are very expensive. This one having a new one, no matter what brand, would be a plus.

Chris

 

[windy acers]

THE FORD DRIVES BETTER AND IS MORE COMFORTABLE THAN THE DODGE.IF YOU ARE GOING TO PULL SAY MORE THAN 5 THOUSAND LBS.5 TIMES A WEEK GO WITH THE DODGE 5.9. FOR OCASIONAL TOWING GO WITH THE FORD. THE TWIN I BEAM FRONT END MAKES A DIFFERENCE.

 

[Diamondpilot]

THE FORD DRIVES BETTER AND IS MORE COMFORTABLE THAN THE DODGE.IF YOU ARE GOING TO PULL SAY MORE THAN 5 THOUSAND LBS.5 TIMES A WEEK GO WITH THE DODGE 5.9. FOR OCASIONAL TOWING GO WITH THE FORD. THE TWIN I BEAM FRONT END MAKES A DIFFERENCE.

What Twin I Beam. All I have ever seen were solid front axle.

Chris

 

[Mighty Dodge]

I own a 97 Dodge 2500, Cummins, auto trans, w/139k on the clock. No problems whatsoever.

M.D.

 

[RobertN]

My old twin I-beam was much better when I switched it to a solid front axle. Ride comfort was marginally different. Handling was better with the solid axle. Off road/hunting was better. Handling a trailer, or my big cab-over camper was better. Of real note for a long bed xcab, the solid front axle turned a lot tighter.

Would not recommend the 3/4 ton twin-ibeam. 2 of 3 trucks I see are sagging in the front; the leaf springs do not hold up well. The twin-ibeam works ok in a 1/2 ton, with coil springs, but leafs will sag.

Once I went to a solid axle, and had the springs rebuilt(again), the sag problem went away. The leaf's just do not hold up well to the arcing motion of travel based on a pivot point at the middle of the front of the truck.

FWIW, most of the parts, ie shocks, springs ect can be reused with the installation of a straight axle in a Ford 3/4 ton 4x4 with twin-ibeam.

THE FORD DRIVES BETTER AND IS MORE COMFORTABLE THAN THE DODGE.IF YOU ARE GOING TO PULL SAY MORE THAN 5 THOUSAND LBS.5 TIMES A WEEK GO WITH THE DODGE 5.9. FOR OCASIONAL TOWING GO WITH THE FORD. THE TWIN I BEAM FRONT END MAKES A DIFFERENCE.

 

[ModMech]

I've owned many Ford P/Us, driven many more and Dodge as well but never owned a dodge diesel. Worked on LOTS of T444E (7.3L PSDs) and B5.9L Cummins and I'll offer the following (loyal Ford customer, but not blindly so).

Ford: The 7.3L PSD is a powerhouse but the most costly to "hop-up", the manual trans is excellant and autos are good. When you put that much Tq to an auto, expecially in pulling applications, you get some failures. Look around, a huge percentage of the RV movers use Fords and they have a strong preference for the '99 up 7.3Ls. The "twin I-beam" front suspension has been a stalwart design and is TOUGH, especially true in the 4x2s. The E4OD/4R100 and 5R110 are decent, even good ATs and will last many hundreds of thousands of miles if treated fairly. Again, anything can break unexpectedly, some do. The F-2/350s are heavy and a *little* thirstier than the Dodge, so your fuel bill will be slightly higher, but power takes fuel.

Dodge: The 5.9L is the least expensive engine to "hop-up" by far and when treated fairly they will run 300,000 easy just like the Ford. Assuming the KDP stays where it belongs, if not, you might need a block. The 5.9L excells at Tq production but is not the king of HP, the Fords pull harder under a load from my experience (same trailer with both). The Dodge Cummins will get better mileage than the Ford or GM under any conditions. The problem with them is the transmissions, both manual and autos have a terrible track record. Not saying they are junk, but they both definately have issues you may or may not get.

The glow Plugs in the 7.3L PSDs are as close to 100% reliable as one can expect to get and I've never had the heads off of a stock PSD, not even once in 15 years of working on them and only replaced one GP in that time. They are reliable and powerful, but not the most powerful you can get with a couple extra dollars and the reliability drops off fast when you start adding power. Stock, IMO they are unbeatable because sooner or later, especially with ULSD, you WILL be buying an IP and injectors for that Cummins and that's way more $$$ than a HPOP.

 

[3930dave]

The trucks I'm looking at are 2wd. While 4wd would be "nice to have" (for me), I prefer 2wd considering how long I hang onto vehicles.

Thnx for the detailed engine feedback ModMech - makes sense, as a medium duty engine, the 5.9 will have a lot more headroom in the design, if you really want to beat on it (performance wise).

The only upgrades I'd likely do on either truck is better air filtration (if needed), and a freer flowing exhaust. The goal would be efficiency, and cooler running. Any harm (reliability wise) with these mods on the 7.3 ?

Any "Injectors for Dummies"tm summary on comparing these 2 systems ? I have to admit to being ignorant (and a little confused, esp. re the PSD system - why have a 500psi oil requirement to operate a fuel injector ?).

I'm wondering if the 7.3 HPOP is a dealer only item, couldn't find them at Advance Auto just now, sounds like these do go, and am trying to estimate cost.

I use Stanadyne Power Formula year round in my old Ag tractor (just to be kind), and would also use this on either truck.

Did I understand your post correctly - the Cummins fuel system is more sensitive to ULSD than the PSD ?

Thnx, Rgds, D.