Spend my money on a welder.

[lostcause]

as far as the argument about whether they will be here in 5 or 10 years... well, that's not even an issue anymore. all companies will drop a division that hemorrhages money without blinking an eye. if i had told you in the year 2000 that in 10 years saturn, pontiac and hummer would all be gone, not a single one of you would have believed me. how about now?

i can't say for lincoln because i haven't bothered to research it, but i remember reading that the parent company of miller & hobart owns companies numbering in the 100's. if everlast or a similar new company does turn out to become very popular and remain price competitive over the next decade, do you think that both miller and hobart will survive? fair bet that one of them will either close, or else stop making the homeowner-sized line of welders - they're competing with themselves essentially. it's pure economics.

also, there is a lot of useless "help" in here, but a lot of it is from the wrong point of view. pipeline welding experience is not completely transferable to other forms of welding. i've seen it said a few times about how you should always use a 6010 for the root pass, and that may be the case for your work, but i've seen tens of thousands of complete penetration splices where that is not valid. all the heavy rolled shapes i am used to working with require low hydrogen electrodes and a higher tensile strength electrode.

funny thing is that i see all sorts of posturing here about stick with 6011 being better to use for certain cases, but i've yet to see anyone realize that the steel they buy at the scrapyard might be a572-gr50 (or stronger), and yet everyone feels safe using 6011 electrodes. guess nobody worries about using a non-lh electrode and having it crack. it's funny how people will pick what they consider to be safety issues.

i'm still undecided on whether i will gamble on an everlast - if they already had an established dealer network across the country, then it would probably be a no brainer. though it's probably not necessary, i still find it nice when someone at a repair shop can put hands on a piece of equipment and know a lot about it. if i were to buy an everlast and take it to a local shop, it would probably be the first one they had ever seen. in a few years that may not be the case, but at this time it still is. who can tell whether the insides of their equipment is different than any other company? the biggest difference i have seen between established companies and newer offshore companies is the quality of the manual and other documentation. my biggest worry is the time frame to receive a non-consumable replacement part if it had to be ordered from china. as far as mark goes, he has really been nothing but help to the people here. he's certainly a lot more help than any normal salesman i have dealt with.

 

[lostcause]

No, that was arkansas I think. The closest thing was Forrest Gump over in Bayou LaBatrie AL.

We had the Dukes of Hazzard.

don't forget deliverace

 

[yomax4]

The Only Thermal Arc unit currently produced in China is the 95S. In my oppinion ( and I Sell Them ) It is a toy. What 115V Stick Welder is not a toy? The Bread and Butter Thermal Arc Units are made in Our Plant in Malaysia or by Sanrex in Japan. Sanrex is known as the finest Inverter on the planet also used by Miller and Hypertherm. The New TA units due out in November will be built in New Hampshire using our Thermal Dynamics Plasma Cutter Format. I am sure they will be well recieved.:thumbsup:

 

[BrentD]

Let me throw a slightly different perspective into the mix. I'm not endorsing any one brand, but I wanted to give a bit of an analysis on the technologies involved.

I personally own a Miller Thunderbolt 225 AC/DC that I bought off of craigslist and a Harbor Freight Mig 121. I like them both, and they both have their uses.

I do not own an inverter welder, but as I understand Inverter technology, it's just a fancy way of saying "heavy duty switch-mode power supply." For those of you not familiar with switch mode supplies, they work by first taking the incoming A/C and pump it into a high-frequency oscillator. Normal A/C switches polarity 120 times per second (0 to + to 0 to - back to 0 cycles per second). Straight rectified DC, like comes out of my Miller 225 is actually pulsed at 120 times per second (one pulse for each half of the cycle). Even adding a filter/stabilizer capacitor to that, you still end up with voltage that ripples.

Inverters, on the other hand, pump that switching rate WAY up. Into the Kilo Hertz or Megahertz range, depending on the design, before rectifying the voltage to DC and adding stabilizer capacitors. The end result is a power source that is incredibly stable, and precisely controllable. There is a reason why virtually every computer in the world runs on a switchmode supply. That incredible stability (and weight reduction that comes from eliminating the big transformer) comes with the price of added complexity, usually in the form of a microcontroller of some sort.

So why did I end up buying the simple Miller and the Simple HF Mig rather than an inverter? Because I work with computers everyday and have developed an innate distrust of computer power supplies. But that distrust was built up back in the early 90's before supplies started adding things like power factor correction and before AMD broke the 1Ghz CPU barrier and power stability became increasingly more important. Today's computer supplies are capable of producing power that varies less than 1/100th of a volt. And I would wager that 99.5% of them are made in China. The only brand of power supplies I will use any more are soled by Corsair, and manufactured by a company called SeaSonic in Taipei. They are rock solid and I have some that have been running constantly for 5 years now, powering servers that never get shut down.

How does that have any bearing on welders? It's just through implication. China manufactures the best switchmode power supplies out there. If these same people are scaling the technology up to be used for welders, then I'd say they have the technological edge. Particularly for a hobbyist that needs a small, reliable, and affordable welder for occasional use. Or for the person that needs incredible weld quality and precision control of weld parameters.

As for me, I still think I'll stick to my simpler straight rectified DC machines. Why? Because if they break down I've got 4 components to check: Transformer, Diodes, Power Switch, Cooling fan. If anything other than the main transformer is dead I can go on E-Bay and buy generic parts and rebuild the machine myself. And unless I do something incredibly stupid, the main transformer isn't going to die. With an inverter welder, I don't have that luxury. Yes, I could probably trace down and repair most problems with the circuitry, but what if that microcontroller decides to fail, and it's not a simple "dumb" power supply controller chip, but a chip that requires software of some sort? That, I can't fix. Only the manufacturer can fix. But on the up side, the best recourse for them is to just send me a new welder, or a new controller board, or whatever.

Now, being a bit steampunk, I'd like to see an inverter style welder built using vacuum tube technology. I'm sure it can be done. Would probably be about the size of a single stall horse trailer anre require a full-ton pickup to move it though.

 

[Mark @ Everlast]

Brent,

I will preface by saying I am not an electronics engineer or even close. But our highly experienced EE's we have working for us or consulting for us have told me that he chips are not proprietary. Some brands do have a single controlling chip, but ours do not....as it stands right now. I think you'd find almost everything stateside. We do a lot of things with old fashioned circuitry. Not that we can't do proprietary stuff, its just better and easier to use components easily found wherever the product has to go to work.

But from my understanding, the description of the inverter welders is correct.

 

[wvpolekat]

Just to add some food for thought. The Internet has really leveled the playing field in a lot of ways. Sub standard items or service are relatively easy to expose. Just google something like "Everlast welder problem" and see what comes up. No company can quiet the Internet. So, even if (and I am in no way saying this is happening) were able to delete negative threads here, they would appear elsewhere as well.

 

[rjmack]

Just to add some food for thought. The Internet has really leveled the playing field in a lot of ways. Sub standard items or service are relatively easy to expose. Just google something like "Everlast welder problem" and see what comes up. No company can quiet the Internet. So, even if (and I am in no way saying this is happening) were able to delete negative threads here, they would appear elsewhere as well.

that's a good point, here's something of note.

CR4 - Blog Entry: The Everlast Plasma Cutter That Didn?t Last

i have to add, you would NEVER get this bs from miller.

one other thing, i'm just wondering if these units are csa approved for sale in canada?

when the country of origin is regularly being called for such things as lead paint in children's toys, you have to wonder if anything that comes out of that completely unregulated environment is even safe to have on your property.

Mark,

i can't blame you for trying to make a buck, after all, snake oil in its various forms was sold for almost 100 years... people kept buying it, so people kept making money selling it... no rocket science there. in fact i'd have to say you are a pretty good salesman... one minute, everlast is ten years ahead of miller in technology, the next minute you can get parts off the shelf at quickie mart and easily replace defects. i still can't help notice there is minimal focus on customer support.

i realize that everlast has paid to get the last word here, but i can't help wonder if those welding machines have lead paint on them, or any other hidden deadly defects that will only surface with time, and will be met with indifference from a completely irresponsible dealer/manufacturer network?

the chinese business model does clearly incorporate the 'get a lot of people once, and then move on to the next scam' mentality in every product i have ever looked at. why would i expect everlast to be any different?

 

[gauthier]

Pole cat,they also make 7010,8010 ,9010,think even a 10010,beleive some of them are even considered lo/hi,and you can put a root in with them on pipe like 6010.

If they are using 7018 to put roots in,its with a backing,or backgouge and weld back side

Low/hi stick, has its places,but not nessacary at home or on the average farm.

Mig ,fluxcore,subarc,tig,are all considered low/hi processes I believe. Most fab shops[bridge shops],use a stick very little,just for tacking generally if even that,they use flux core and subarc.

Pipe fitters/boilermaker type work,they use various things for open root,mostly tig,but some 6010,some mig.They don't use 7018 for open root on pipe/tube,unless one of the big wheels has temp blowed a few brain cells.

Pipeline work,60/70/8010 is used alot,downhill.

 

[Mark @ Everlast]

that's a good point, here's something of note.

CR4 - Blog Entry: The Everlast Plasma Cutter That Didn?t Last

i have to add, you would NEVER get this bs from miller.

one other thing, i'm just wondering if these units are csa approved for sale in canada?

when the country of origin is regularly being called for such things as lead paint in children's toys, you have to wonder if anything that comes out of that completely unregulated environment is even safe to have on your property.

Mark,

i can't blame you for trying to make a buck, after all, snake oil in its various forms was sold for almost 100 years... people kept buying it, so people kept making money selling it... no rocket science there. in fact i'd have to say you are a pretty good salesman... one minute, everlast is ten years ahead of miller in technology, the next minute you can get parts off the shelf at quickie mart and easily replace defects. i still can't help notice there is minimal focus on customer support.

i realize that everlast has paid to get the last word here, but i can't help wonder if those welding machines have lead paint on them, or any other hidden deadly defects that will only surface with time, and will be met with indifference from a completely irresponsible dealer/manufacturer network?

the chinese business model does clearly incorporate the 'get a lot of people once, and then move on to the next scam' mentality in every product i have ever looked at. why would i expect everlast to be any different?

If you read in between the lines there, then you'll see more rhetoric, than dealing with the issues.

A few things:

1) Yes, our units are CSA approved and CE.
2) If you're worried about "lead paint", then you probably won't like the nasty stuff that any electronic item has in it. Our units are powder coated btw.
3) If you look, you'll find problems with warranty with the other guys as well. Plenty of them...always two sides to a story. You WILL find warranty problems with any company that has been out there more than 6 months, I don't care who it is, including Miller, to think otherwise is extremely naive. I sit on the receiving end of nightmare stories all the time about other companies. We've sold over 10k units heading quickly to 15k. Rapid growth sometimes does create growing pains. Look at the post date. I believe that unit was sold in 2008.It was an issue with one shipment of plasma cutters. You can read in between the lines. We get guys willing to "blackmail" us as well promising to post nasty stuff about us if we don't give them this or give them that. We could chase every legal rabbit trail, but then we'd rather put the money into our business.
4) We are a US based company, not Chinese....lets get that out there. It is not Chinese owned either, though we do have a mix of heritage in the company, from the US, Britain, Canada, Russia, and growing.
5) When we started, we were importing welders from a generic company. It was probably a dumb thing to do, since they were selling to what seemed like every importer on the market....They sent out a bad batch of mosfet plsama cutters and a few units, and everyone importing from that company still had problems. The MOSFETS failed...not all of them, but a statistically significant amount of them. Many companies went under. That factory buys its components through middle men, and had bought a bogus batch that weren't what they said they were. It gave us a black eye as well as tarnishing the product image. We dealt with it and survived. We learned and made some changes. Before I came on board with the company over 1 1/2 years ago, I fully investigated this problem...All customers with issues received their replacements or refunds, some did have to wait a few weeks. This customer states he did not, but he also did not follow the warranty as it should have been. But in the end we did foul up handling this one situation and probably a few more, because of the sudden rash of issues outstripped our supply for about a month. But we cannot do anything about it now and have different and improved warranty handling policies in place.
6) We do not have any tie to that factory any longer and have not now since before that was posted. Our factory is ISO 9001 rated and holds its own patents. It has a large following in Europe and other parts of the world. They manufacture to our specs and we visit the factory personally to inspect, mostly unannounced, 3 times already this year. We did not do that from the beginning with the old factory, we do now. The current factory buys direct from the source using IGBT's from Sieman/Infineon which are heavier duty for welder applications, just as other companies do. Our prices are higher now, because our component quality is higher. There are plenty of "display" photos of our internal components posted by our customers proud of their units showing the internal construction...


7) Features, and designs and performance advancements have nothing to do with whether components are off the shelf or not. A lot of it has to do with how they are employed. We have several things that some of our electronic guys that buy our welders notice that are different, yet work well on our units that are simpler ways of doing the same thing. But advancements in welding technology is quite slow. Really, rather what is lacking is advancements in applications of existing technology. When there are new, useful applications of technology, it is an advancement.

8) As far as customer support, we have US based customer support, available well beyond normal business hours and usually on the weekends, with capable people to answer any problems and work through any issues. We also have a welding forum dedicated to technical support, resolving any issues with customer complaints that may slip through the cracks or that desire to ask questions or just chat. Our manuals are down loadable online on our website for perusal before anyone buys. Our warranty statement is posted as well as other helpful information on the website. We are also HIRING additional staff even as I write. I won't say we never have a problem with a welder or a customer never has to use his warranty. But we make good on it. Neither will a Miller salesman. If there is any perceived lack of focus on customer support in place now, its my fault for not talking more about it, but I feel that our customers are the best voice for that...whether past present or future.

9) I am not just a salesman. I work additionally on the side. I build and fabricate products such as sawmills and trailers. In fact, while I am replying to this I just took a deposit on a trailer. I rely on many Everlast products in my shop to carry me through. I have other products too...I use the Everlast, not because I am forced to but because I want to.

 

[BlacknTan]

Blackntan,

There are market forces at play here that you are not understanding. A $1000.00 welder MAY cost 150.00 to produce, give or take. I happen to know that our spool guns come from the same factory that Miller's does in China. Ours are priced greatly different. Ours is $399, and for the "same" gun, although our is adapated for our machine, from Miller, it lists for 710.00 We are turning a handsome profit. Millers' buy in point is obviously going to be even lower than ours because of their volume. They just simply choose to charge what the traffic will allow...at least the traffic they want.

The Thermal ARC S95 is a 95 amp welder which is quite popular from China, (for the sake of Yomax I won't mention the factories name,). They are marketing that unit at nearly the same price as our PowerARC 200. It doesn't handle 6010 very well and is lower in duty cycle. Yet though it is a good factory, and good product it isn't any better made than ours. And their buy in is definitely a small fraction of what they sell it for, if I am not mistaken.

This translates well into other product lines as well. Miller may sell a product at 3 to 5 times the cost of what it takes to produce it easily. Yet, I believe what you see even in this thread has become akin to stockholm syndrome, protecting the people that are hurting you the most, because they extend a little affection after they beat you up. This may be an extreme comparison, so I apologize ahead of time... A better analogy is if you'll shop around, you'll find even in my small time town where I live vast, significant price differences from different autoparts stores, and they are selling the same product. Yet the more expensive stores thrive and even offer less services. There's a certain feeling that people get from this, a false security that makes them think that even though the product is from the same company that made it, same part number etc, that it is really somehow better.

I just bought a computer from Wal Mart last night. I shopped around all day for it as mine went kaput. I found a nice HP laptop. I had gone to other computer stores, selling the same brand and wanted me to pay 300.00 more than what I paid for this HP, even though it was the same brand. When I bought this one, I paid 498.00 for it. It had 320gb hardrive, webcam, 17.3 inch monitor, 4 gb of ram, DVD multi layer reader writer, Dual core processor etc. The same features at one store, was well over 700.00 to 800.00

Yes Miller, Lincoln and others are all good companies. But they are not here to give you anything for free or become some nostalgic, grandfatherly company. They are here to make money and make the most that they can... off you. Nothing wrong with it...not from my perspective. They do offer services that our company can't and doesn't wish to provide. But all those nice show trucks and large congregations of peoples and lunches out between sales shows with Execs of other companies are paid for courtesy of your pocket book....

So, I'd disagree with your assessment. Times have changed. Maybe a few years ago, when the playing field was level and all products were made here, a big difference would have existed in a 300.00 and 1000.00 product. But enter unions, higher wages, less production, higher corporate salaries, huge ad campaigns and you have an inflated product that offers little advantage over a cheaper product that does not contend with those problems.

As far as an infomercial, these forums exist for the reason of profit. I am sure Muhammed doesn't work for free. Every one of these forums has a sponsor, and advertising is throughout. I am here to offer what advice I can, and when there is a question about welding, or my product to offer an answer based in reason and experience.

My background is agriculture, growing up. I grew up in a tractor dealership, and later on worked in another in college, and became a farm equipment rep for a large company in TN. If you'll read in the other forums, I participate there as well when I have knowledge or something helpful to contribute.

Yeah, I guess I'm pretty dumb!

I've been around the block a few times but I guess I didn't learn much...

Although... I might have been born at night, but it wasn't LAST night, but I can still recognize a snakeoil salesman, albeit a good snakeoil salesman, from about a mile away...

Carry on!