weldingisfun
Veteran Member
- Joined
- Dec 12, 2006
- Messages
- 1,790
- Location
- West Bell County, Texas
- Tractor
- Mahindra 4500 4WD w/FEL, and Scotts S2048 lawn tractor
20x20 Shed/mini barn with a loft
- Thread starter peterssj4034
- Start date
- Views: 41666
OP
peterssj4034
Bronze Member
amarlow
Bronze Member
Seth,
In all seriousness, this is EXACTLY the shed I am wanting to build. And for exactly the same reason, ie. new tractor storage on new, in my case completely vacant property. You have been in IT for a while, so hopefully are used to us ****, detail oriented engineers, and will tolerate my very specific questions. (Others may benefit as well, and hence you should answer in excruciating detail in return.)
In no particular order, then.
Are those 20 ft boards down the long side (ie. no butt joint)? You show three courses. Are these three pressure treated? Will you use the same material all the way to the eaves? Or something else for the "siding"?
I don't actually live that far away. Here in SE Michigan we are required to put in a "rat wall." This is some sort of barrier below grade to prevent critters from burrowing under the walls, or even slab (when you put down the concrete floor), and either entering the shed or undermining the floor. In a large shed I built a couple decades back, I used a couple of treated 2x10's stacked on edge and spiked to the outside of the 6x6 and 4x6 poles. Will you be installing any sort of rat wall? If not, how will you keep critters out?
Speaking of critters, how will you "seal" or close off the attic space from critters who want to enter beneath the eaves, ie. directly under the metal roof sheathing and between the trusses.
It doesn't look from the photos that you did much of anything to keep the 6x6 and 4x6 posts plumb and upright while the concrete or whatever you had around the posts set. How did you do this? Just leave off those photos? Or some other clever method?
What did you set the posts in? concrete? gravel? How deep? If not concrete, any sort of big, flat stone or such at the bottom of the holes, given that your clay lined post holes will hold water forever?
What is the length and exposed width of the metal roofing sheets?
Are you willing to generate a BOM for your shed? If not, then can you at least say what the trusses cost? the metal roof? Did you do all of the design yourself? or use a pre-designed kit?
Have you "left room" in the design for a possible shed roof "extension" off one side?
You didn't post (or I missed) the setting of the purlins. Are these 2x4? Looks like 28 or 30 inch on center? Spacing dictated by specs from the metal roofing manufacturer?
Why only a 10x20 loft? It looks like all of the trusses are all the same, and you could have done the second floor as large as the first. Why not? (probably a personal choice, but I'm curious)
Never mind that last one. I just figured it out. The knee wall is 2.5 ft in from each side, right? But this begs the question: did you consider raising the roof some amount to move the knee walls out toward the edge? Or did the trusses require the vertical "queen posts" no matter what?
How will you access the loft? Ladder? Stairs?
Any windows planned? Using rollup doors?
OK, lots of questions. And I'm sure I can and will come up with more. Thanks for taking the time. I'll appreciate any and all answers you are willing to give. This really is my shed.
~Allen
In all seriousness, this is EXACTLY the shed I am wanting to build. And for exactly the same reason, ie. new tractor storage on new, in my case completely vacant property. You have been in IT for a while, so hopefully are used to us ****, detail oriented engineers, and will tolerate my very specific questions. (Others may benefit as well, and hence you should answer in excruciating detail in return.)
In no particular order, then.
Are those 20 ft boards down the long side (ie. no butt joint)? You show three courses. Are these three pressure treated? Will you use the same material all the way to the eaves? Or something else for the "siding"?
I don't actually live that far away. Here in SE Michigan we are required to put in a "rat wall." This is some sort of barrier below grade to prevent critters from burrowing under the walls, or even slab (when you put down the concrete floor), and either entering the shed or undermining the floor. In a large shed I built a couple decades back, I used a couple of treated 2x10's stacked on edge and spiked to the outside of the 6x6 and 4x6 poles. Will you be installing any sort of rat wall? If not, how will you keep critters out?
Speaking of critters, how will you "seal" or close off the attic space from critters who want to enter beneath the eaves, ie. directly under the metal roof sheathing and between the trusses.
It doesn't look from the photos that you did much of anything to keep the 6x6 and 4x6 posts plumb and upright while the concrete or whatever you had around the posts set. How did you do this? Just leave off those photos? Or some other clever method?
What did you set the posts in? concrete? gravel? How deep? If not concrete, any sort of big, flat stone or such at the bottom of the holes, given that your clay lined post holes will hold water forever?
What is the length and exposed width of the metal roofing sheets?
Are you willing to generate a BOM for your shed? If not, then can you at least say what the trusses cost? the metal roof? Did you do all of the design yourself? or use a pre-designed kit?
Have you "left room" in the design for a possible shed roof "extension" off one side?
You didn't post (or I missed) the setting of the purlins. Are these 2x4? Looks like 28 or 30 inch on center? Spacing dictated by specs from the metal roofing manufacturer?
Why only a 10x20 loft? It looks like all of the trusses are all the same, and you could have done the second floor as large as the first. Why not? (probably a personal choice, but I'm curious)
Never mind that last one. I just figured it out. The knee wall is 2.5 ft in from each side, right? But this begs the question: did you consider raising the roof some amount to move the knee walls out toward the edge? Or did the trusses require the vertical "queen posts" no matter what?
How will you access the loft? Ladder? Stairs?
Any windows planned? Using rollup doors?
OK, lots of questions. And I'm sure I can and will come up with more. Thanks for taking the time. I'll appreciate any and all answers you are willing to give. This really is my shed.
~Allen
OP
peterssj4034
Bronze Member
Allen,
I will do my best to answer all of your questions.
Are those 20 ft. boards down the long side (i.e. no butt joint)? You show three courses. Are these three pressure treated? Will you use the same material all the way to the eaves? Or something else for the "siding"?
Yes, the headers and the pressure treated boards are all 20ft boards. The headers are 2x12s; the pressure treated pieces are T&G 2x8s. I will use something else for siding, either pine/fir carsiding, or 4x8 sheets of pine/fir siding. I like the natural look, so I want wood siding that I will stain and seal. The bottom treated pieces are installed to go up against the grade; I need to finish the grade.
I don't actually live that far away. Here in SE Michigan we are required to put in a "rat wall." This is some sort of barrier below grade to prevent critters from burrowing under the walls, or even slab (when you put down the concrete floor), and either entering the shed or undermining the floor. In a large shed I built a couple decades back, I used a couple of treated 2x10's stacked on edge and spiked to the outside of the 6x6 and 4x6 poles. Will you be installing any sort of rat wall? If not, how will you keep critters out?
I will not install a rat wall; even though in the current pictures, the treated 2x8s are above grade, they will eventually be below grade, so if I understand your question correctly, these will act as a rat wall?
Speaking of critters, how will you "seal" or close off the attic space from critters who want to enter beneath the eaves, i.e. directly under the metal roof sheathing and between the trusses.
I have eaves, soffits, etc., that will be finished this weekend (hopefully). Some TBNers have used screens to keep out unwanted guests, so I will use that method on any problem areas.
It doesn't look from the photos that you did much of anything to keep the 6x6 and 4x6 posts plumb and upright while the concrete or whatever you had around the posts set. How did you do this? Just leave off those photos? Or some other clever method?
All of the posts are set in concrete. The posts were braced when poured by 2x4s, but I also installed the headers the same day as I set the posts, and then braced everything in the evening until the concrete was set.
What did you set the posts in? Concrete? Gravel? How deep? If not concrete, any sort of big, flat stone or such at the bottom of the holes, given that your clay lined post holes will hold water forever?
The posts are set in concrete, 36 deep. I didn't put anything special in the holes. Each post has 80lbs of quikrete poured in.
What is the length and exposed width of the metal roofing sheets?
The metal roofing sheets are 15 feet, 5 and one half inches long. They are standard three feet widths. I cut the last panel on each side to width; the shed has a one foot overhang on the gable ends, and the truss ends. The roof is a 12/12 pitch.
Are you willing to generate a BOM for your shed? If not, then can you at least say what the trusses cost? The metal roof? Did you do all of the design yourself? Or use a pre-designed kit?
I worked with a local lumber company, Keim Lumber, to get a BOM generated so I could get an idea of costs, however, I did not follow it to a "T" I worked with them to make sure my ideas were sound structurally, and to help with the trusses. I would be happy the share original with you, just PM me. I did the design, but it was very generic to be honest; I knew I wanted a post frame 20x20 shed, with the capability of future expansion, and a loft. The trusses I had engineered (as you can tell from the pictures), everything else I have done myself (without some help on the heavy days) without a kit. The trusses cost about $1100, the metal roof (the color is Brandywine, which was a special order), screws, fascia, ridgecaps, etc. was right at $1,000. All of the roofing materials, screws included, are the same Brandywine color.
This is the first project of this kind that I have tackled doing the majority of the work myself, and it has been a very positive learning experience.
Have you "left room" in the design for a possible shed roof "extension" off one side?
Yes, I actually have plenty of room off of both sides for expansion, and I am already contemplating future growth (and I'm clearly not done with the initial structure yet, sad, I know).
You didn't post (or I missed) the setting of the purlins. Are these 2x4? Looks like 28 or 30 inch on center? Spacing dictated by specs from the metal roofing manufacturer?
I didn't post any pictures of the installation of the purlins. I was a one man operation, and forgot to take any. They are 2x4s, 24" on center, except for the row at the peak. Those are closer to 30" away from the row below. with the steepness of the roof, snow load shouldn't be an issue, so after some checking, 24" on center seemed appropriate.
Why only a 10x20 loft? It looks like all of the trusses are all the same, and you could have done the second floor as large as the first. Why not? (probably a personal choice, but I遏･ curious)
The trusses were engineered, so I went with their recommendations. I knew I would lose a little floor space compared to the bottom, but overall I am pretty pleased with the amount of space. I have a little over 7 feet of headroom down the center, which is good because I am 6'5". I have the plans for the trusses if you would like to see those as well. I don't have an electronic copy, so I will have to scan them in.
Never mind that last one. I just figured it out. The knee wall is 2.5 ft. in from each side, right? But this begs the question: did you consider raising the roof some amount to move the knee walls out toward the edge? Or did the trusses require the vertical 雉*queen posts no matter what?
I didn't consider raising the roof, as I went with the recommendations of the experts.
How will you access the loft? Ladder? Stairs?
I haven't decided yet. I'll have doors on the front and back of the loft, a 3ft door on the front, and 6ft of doors on the back. My loader is 6ft wide, and I can reach the loft with the loader. I may put steps on the back, where I can't see them to get into the loft, or I may put stairs in one corner on the inside. However, I am afraid of using up floor space with stairs on the inside. Another option is a ladder like those used to access attacks (think Clark Griswold in Christmas Vacation).
Any windows planned? Using rollup doors?
I will have a couple of windows on each side without a door; I just don't have them in yet. The doors will be built by me, and will swing open; both doors will be a total of 10ft wide, each door will then be 5ft.
I hope this helps? am by no means a professional. I expect to have about $5,000 in this (not including the concrete that will eventually be poured).
Seth
I will do my best to answer all of your questions.
Are those 20 ft. boards down the long side (i.e. no butt joint)? You show three courses. Are these three pressure treated? Will you use the same material all the way to the eaves? Or something else for the "siding"?
Yes, the headers and the pressure treated boards are all 20ft boards. The headers are 2x12s; the pressure treated pieces are T&G 2x8s. I will use something else for siding, either pine/fir carsiding, or 4x8 sheets of pine/fir siding. I like the natural look, so I want wood siding that I will stain and seal. The bottom treated pieces are installed to go up against the grade; I need to finish the grade.
I don't actually live that far away. Here in SE Michigan we are required to put in a "rat wall." This is some sort of barrier below grade to prevent critters from burrowing under the walls, or even slab (when you put down the concrete floor), and either entering the shed or undermining the floor. In a large shed I built a couple decades back, I used a couple of treated 2x10's stacked on edge and spiked to the outside of the 6x6 and 4x6 poles. Will you be installing any sort of rat wall? If not, how will you keep critters out?
I will not install a rat wall; even though in the current pictures, the treated 2x8s are above grade, they will eventually be below grade, so if I understand your question correctly, these will act as a rat wall?
Speaking of critters, how will you "seal" or close off the attic space from critters who want to enter beneath the eaves, i.e. directly under the metal roof sheathing and between the trusses.
I have eaves, soffits, etc., that will be finished this weekend (hopefully). Some TBNers have used screens to keep out unwanted guests, so I will use that method on any problem areas.
It doesn't look from the photos that you did much of anything to keep the 6x6 and 4x6 posts plumb and upright while the concrete or whatever you had around the posts set. How did you do this? Just leave off those photos? Or some other clever method?
All of the posts are set in concrete. The posts were braced when poured by 2x4s, but I also installed the headers the same day as I set the posts, and then braced everything in the evening until the concrete was set.
What did you set the posts in? Concrete? Gravel? How deep? If not concrete, any sort of big, flat stone or such at the bottom of the holes, given that your clay lined post holes will hold water forever?
The posts are set in concrete, 36 deep. I didn't put anything special in the holes. Each post has 80lbs of quikrete poured in.
What is the length and exposed width of the metal roofing sheets?
The metal roofing sheets are 15 feet, 5 and one half inches long. They are standard three feet widths. I cut the last panel on each side to width; the shed has a one foot overhang on the gable ends, and the truss ends. The roof is a 12/12 pitch.
Are you willing to generate a BOM for your shed? If not, then can you at least say what the trusses cost? The metal roof? Did you do all of the design yourself? Or use a pre-designed kit?
I worked with a local lumber company, Keim Lumber, to get a BOM generated so I could get an idea of costs, however, I did not follow it to a "T" I worked with them to make sure my ideas were sound structurally, and to help with the trusses. I would be happy the share original with you, just PM me. I did the design, but it was very generic to be honest; I knew I wanted a post frame 20x20 shed, with the capability of future expansion, and a loft. The trusses I had engineered (as you can tell from the pictures), everything else I have done myself (without some help on the heavy days) without a kit. The trusses cost about $1100, the metal roof (the color is Brandywine, which was a special order), screws, fascia, ridgecaps, etc. was right at $1,000. All of the roofing materials, screws included, are the same Brandywine color.
This is the first project of this kind that I have tackled doing the majority of the work myself, and it has been a very positive learning experience.
Have you "left room" in the design for a possible shed roof "extension" off one side?
Yes, I actually have plenty of room off of both sides for expansion, and I am already contemplating future growth (and I'm clearly not done with the initial structure yet, sad, I know).
You didn't post (or I missed) the setting of the purlins. Are these 2x4? Looks like 28 or 30 inch on center? Spacing dictated by specs from the metal roofing manufacturer?
I didn't post any pictures of the installation of the purlins. I was a one man operation, and forgot to take any. They are 2x4s, 24" on center, except for the row at the peak. Those are closer to 30" away from the row below. with the steepness of the roof, snow load shouldn't be an issue, so after some checking, 24" on center seemed appropriate.
Why only a 10x20 loft? It looks like all of the trusses are all the same, and you could have done the second floor as large as the first. Why not? (probably a personal choice, but I遏･ curious)
The trusses were engineered, so I went with their recommendations. I knew I would lose a little floor space compared to the bottom, but overall I am pretty pleased with the amount of space. I have a little over 7 feet of headroom down the center, which is good because I am 6'5". I have the plans for the trusses if you would like to see those as well. I don't have an electronic copy, so I will have to scan them in.
Never mind that last one. I just figured it out. The knee wall is 2.5 ft. in from each side, right? But this begs the question: did you consider raising the roof some amount to move the knee walls out toward the edge? Or did the trusses require the vertical 雉*queen posts no matter what?
I didn't consider raising the roof, as I went with the recommendations of the experts.
How will you access the loft? Ladder? Stairs?
I haven't decided yet. I'll have doors on the front and back of the loft, a 3ft door on the front, and 6ft of doors on the back. My loader is 6ft wide, and I can reach the loft with the loader. I may put steps on the back, where I can't see them to get into the loft, or I may put stairs in one corner on the inside. However, I am afraid of using up floor space with stairs on the inside. Another option is a ladder like those used to access attacks (think Clark Griswold in Christmas Vacation).
Any windows planned? Using rollup doors?
I will have a couple of windows on each side without a door; I just don't have them in yet. The doors will be built by me, and will swing open; both doors will be a total of 10ft wide, each door will then be 5ft.
I hope this helps? am by no means a professional. I expect to have about $5,000 in this (not including the concrete that will eventually be poured).
Seth
amarlow
Bronze Member
Thanks so very much, Seth, for such a wonderfully detailed reply. I thrive on details. And I admit I've been checking all morning to see if you had responded.
I will indeed pm you for the BOM & scanned truss info, just as soon as I figure out how to do that. Again, the more detail, the merrier.
And if you don't mind, a couple more questions: The openings on the end look roughly square. Does that mean the floor to truss ceiling joist is also about 10 feet? How will you be constructing the doors?
I think I mentioned in my first post that I built a 16x24 shed with a 12:12 pitch roof back some years ago (1994?). I also built a pair of doors for that. I believe I used two separate sheets of 3/4 birch plywood, one for each door, with 1x4s appliqued around the perimeter, plus a big X in the field, to simulate an old "barn door". I found somewhere (downtown Detroit?) some huge strap hinges, three per side, with which to hang the doors (they were very heavy). It actually turned out pretty good, I think.
If you decide to pour the floor yourself, give me a holler and I'll come help, just for the sake of the knowledge. It's something I've always wanted to understand how to do, and with a few thousand square feet of concrete floor to be poured over the next few years, I think I could save myself quite a bit if I knew how to do it myself.
Again, thanks for all the help.
~Allen
I will indeed pm you for the BOM & scanned truss info, just as soon as I figure out how to do that. Again, the more detail, the merrier.
And if you don't mind, a couple more questions: The openings on the end look roughly square. Does that mean the floor to truss ceiling joist is also about 10 feet? How will you be constructing the doors?
I think I mentioned in my first post that I built a 16x24 shed with a 12:12 pitch roof back some years ago (1994?). I also built a pair of doors for that. I believe I used two separate sheets of 3/4 birch plywood, one for each door, with 1x4s appliqued around the perimeter, plus a big X in the field, to simulate an old "barn door". I found somewhere (downtown Detroit?) some huge strap hinges, three per side, with which to hang the doors (they were very heavy). It actually turned out pretty good, I think.
If you decide to pour the floor yourself, give me a holler and I'll come help, just for the sake of the knowledge. It's something I've always wanted to understand how to do, and with a few thousand square feet of concrete floor to be poured over the next few years, I think I could save myself quite a bit if I knew how to do it myself.
Again, thanks for all the help.
~Allen
OP
peterssj4034
Bronze Member
Allen,
The doors will be square, 10x10, and I will do something similar to what you describe in your post. I just like that look I guess.
I'm not sure if I will pour the floor myself, or have it done, but if I do end up doing it myself, I will surely need all the help I can get, thanks for the offer.
Seth
The doors will be square, 10x10, and I will do something similar to what you describe in your post. I just like that look I guess.
I'm not sure if I will pour the floor myself, or have it done, but if I do end up doing it myself, I will surely need all the help I can get, thanks for the offer.
Seth
amarlow
Bronze Member
Yet another question:
What drove the 20x20 size choice?
I'm really afraid I will want more than that, like 20x24 or 20x30. It is true the 20 ft length is conveniently divisible by both 5 (for post spacing) and 4 (for standard lumber & plywood).
Just curious.
Thanks again for everything.
~Allen
What drove the 20x20 size choice?
I'm really afraid I will want more than that, like 20x24 or 20x30. It is true the 20 ft length is conveniently divisible by both 5 (for post spacing) and 4 (for standard lumber & plywood).
Just curious.
Thanks again for everything.
~Allen
1950T
Silver Member
- Joined
- Jul 8, 2010
- Messages
- 102
- Location
- western maryland
- Tractor
- oliver 1950T international 1066 ford 9000 plus many many more
seth. verry nice shed. not much different from my blacksmiths shop when first built it other than i timberframed mine . it started out as a 12/12 pitch on the roof but s strom 2 summers ago took the roof off and now it is gabled. and i added on to it so its now in a L shape with 10x15 added on.
i like the idea of the engineered trusses and the open space in the loft. nice work! :thumbsup:
i like the idea of the engineered trusses and the open space in the loft. nice work! :thumbsup:
OP
peterssj4034
Bronze Member
Allen -
The choice in size was dictated primarily by budget, and what I thought I could manage by myself. I knew I wanted to do a lot of work myself, and I guess I thought this would be a reasonable size for my first real project on my property. Also, with my first child due at the end of August, I thought it best that I not go crazy on the budget for the shed, just in case...
It's also structured such that additions to the shed down the road are possible and will (hopefully) have that "always been there" look. Also, having the loft has allowed me, initially, to not worry too much about not having enough room for things. I wanted something larger, but I kept coming back to this size. And, as you pointed out, the math has been pretty easy lol.
1950T -
Thanks for the compliments, I'm looking forward to finishing and getting to use the shed - I wish I had the expertise to timberframe. I would love to see pictures of your addition, as I am already looking to the future.
Seth
The choice in size was dictated primarily by budget, and what I thought I could manage by myself. I knew I wanted to do a lot of work myself, and I guess I thought this would be a reasonable size for my first real project on my property. Also, with my first child due at the end of August, I thought it best that I not go crazy on the budget for the shed, just in case...
It's also structured such that additions to the shed down the road are possible and will (hopefully) have that "always been there" look. Also, having the loft has allowed me, initially, to not worry too much about not having enough room for things. I wanted something larger, but I kept coming back to this size. And, as you pointed out, the math has been pretty easy lol.
1950T -
Thanks for the compliments, I'm looking forward to finishing and getting to use the shed - I wish I had the expertise to timberframe. I would love to see pictures of your addition, as I am already looking to the future.
Seth
1950T
Silver Member
- Joined
- Jul 8, 2010
- Messages
- 102
- Location
- western maryland
- Tractor
- oliver 1950T international 1066 ford 9000 plus many many more
seth at the time i didnt have the tallent either. there is a 175yr old timberframed bank barn on the farm and i pretty much went by the way it was done. only difference is instead of simply pegging the joints mine are pegged and there is 3/8in plate on either side and bolted thru and the nuts welded. maybe over kill but i didnt want anything failing. allso 90% of the timber in it was reclaimed from a bankbarn that was torn down in washington co md.