Setting up gasoline storage tank(s)

[zmoz]

Out of curiosity; why doesn't Oregon allow people to pump their own gas?

I'm not completely sure, but I believe it was an effort to create more jobs. Diesel is self serve, and, you're allowed to pump your own gas into a motorcycle. (but not a boat, gas can, etc) Makes total sense, right?

Besides the local regulations; I'd check your lease for clauses concerning flammable/hazardous materials storage, even if it was an auto body shop before you got it.

Yeah...the lease states that I cannot store gasoline UNLESS I get approval from the landlord, BUT, it also says approval cannot be reasonably withheld if I demonstrate that it will be stored safely and within all laws. That's what I have to do.

As for the fire marshal having a cow...if he's conscientious about his job, he will. I inquired with our local fire marshal about storing 55-gallons of diesel in a drum sitting inside a yellow plastic containment vessel inside fire marshal approved flammable liquid storage cabinet that would reside in my garage. I even emailed him pictures of what products I intended to use, and he still advised against it.

That's why I'm asking for advice here, and I will carefully word my questions to the fire marshal to get answers to the law, not advice or opinions. Hopefully.

 

[rswyan]

Yeah - they wanted me to lease a fancy double wall tank they setup for construction sites, but I wasn't interested in their price.

What was the cost ?

 

[MarkV]

I'll be pretty surprised if the Fire Marshall will approve inside storage of 200 gallons of gas. If there were a structure fire I don't think they would be wanting to fight it with that much accelerant in there. It would also seem like you could run into some real liability issues with anything less than approved containers.

MarkV

 

[LBrown59]

Actually looking at your setup is one of the reasons I wanted to use drums..
I wish gas was as easy to store as diesel.

I'm with you on that.
If it was I'd simply add enough drums so that adding enough gasoline to the diesel order would equal the min order for home delivery.
Anybody on TBN all ready doing that ?

 

[zmoz]

What was the cost ?

About 50 bucks a month.

It would also seem like you could run into some real liability issues with anything less than approved containers.

"Approved" by who? The only certification I've ever seen on a gas tank was from the DOT, and it just so happens the DOT has no authority inside my shop.

Like I said before, I can go buy four drums of 110 octane race gas (at $405 each!) and load them into the back of my pickup, and store them in my shop, can I not? Where do the racers store their drums of gas? Is it somehow different because I only want 91 octane?

In fact, the place that sells race gas in drums, has it stocked inside a warehouse not dissimilar from mine...
SUNOCO RACE FUEL 110 OR METHANOL GALLONS OR DRUMS
Is there something special about those Sunoco drums? Maybe I should just buy a few empties from him?

 

[MarkV]

About 50 bucks a month.


"Approved" by who? The only certification I've ever seen on a gas tank was from the DOT, and it just so happens the DOT has no authority inside my shop.

Like I said before, I can go buy four drums of 110 octane race gas (at $405 each!) and load them into the back of my pickup, and store them in my shop, can I not? Where do the racers store their drums of gas? Is it somehow different because I only want 91 octane?

In fact, the place that sells race gas in drums, has it stocked inside a warehouse not dissimilar from mine...
SUNOCO RACE FUEL 110 OR METHANOL GALLONS OR DRUMS

You may be right and I know nothing about racing gas. What I would question is if something were to happen, would your insurance or the buildings owners insurance be OK with 200 gallons of gas stored inside? Your insurance agent seems like the first place to check.

A quick Google search seems to indicate that most areas have regulations when it comes to storing more than 25 gallons of gasoline. Even with 25 gallons it must be in approved containers no larger than 5 gallons. Of course that is just what I am reading and I'll look forward to hearing what you find out.

MarkV

 

[zmoz]

I'm still not sure if they have specific regulations about how to store it, but I looked up all the permitted land uses for my specific industrial zoning in my city. They say I'm allowed to "store or wholesale" up to 600 gallons of "fuel".

The place next to me is the local school bus contractor and I can see their big refueling tank from my front door, but it's diesel, and it looks like a really expensive double wall tank. There has been more than one "issue" with people trying to steal fuel out of this tank at night...

I will definately talk with local officials first, but, as you guys have pointed out I have to word my questions very carefully and come to them having some knowledge about the issue. Something like "If I wanted to store a few drums of fuel for my race car where should I put them?"

 

[rswyan]

About 50 bucks a month.

Yeah ..... that's kinda dear ...

Of course, I'm saying that from the vantage point of not knowing what an EPA/OSHA-approved double wall tank currently costs .....

I once purchased a single-wall 550 gallon steel skid tank (for waste oil) .... as I recall the price was somewhere around a buck a gallon .... but then that was more than 20 years ago

BTW - did you ask if you can just purchase a tank outright ? (the problem with doing so is that the tank may have to be inspected and re-certified periodically)

"Approved" by who? The only certification I've ever seen on a gas tank was from the DOT, and it just so happens the DOT has no authority inside my shop.

Yeah, well .... they may not (they do have authority over you and your vehicle if you are using it on the public highways) .....

But EPA and OSHA probably do ....

You ain't talking about a "gas tank" (as in a vehicle) - you talking about an "above-ground petroleum storage tank" ....... different animal .....

Think EPA and OSHA .... not DOT.

Like I said before, I can go buy four drums of 110 octane race gas (at $405 each!) and load them into the back of my pickup .....

..... and drive it somewhere, loaded ? :shocked:

Ahhhh .... do you have at least a Class C CDL with a Hazmat endorsement ?

At the point you load four 55 gallon drums of gasoline into your truck, it will contain roughly 1364 pounds of a Class III Flammable Liquid ... and your vehicle is now loaded with a placardable amount of Hazardous Material (Actually, in the case of gasoline, you hit that threshold just a little bit after you started filling the 3rd drum) .....

..... and you have just caused your truck to become a Commercial Motor Vehicle ..... subject to regulation by the DOT.

Under 49 CFR 173.6 (Hazardous Materials - Materials of Trade Exception), the maximum limit for transporting small quantities of gasoline is no more than 8 gallons per container, with the total weight of all hazardous materials not exceeding 440 pounds. And it must be transported in a red metal UL listed safety can.

Any quantity of gasoline greater than 8 gallons per container must comply fully with hazmat regulations.

Gasoline carried in quantities per container greater than 8 gallons per container must also comply with the following:

1. The package/container must be marked on one side as follows:
Gasoline
UN1203

2. The package/container must be labeled with a class 3, flammable liquid label.

3. Shipping Papers must be carried along with an MSDS sheet for gasoline.

Gasoline carried in excess of 119 gallons must comply with items 1-3 above as well as the following:

1. The driver must obtain a Commercial Drivers License with a hazardous materials endorsement.

2. The vehicle must be placarded with the appropriate placard.

Other regulations may apply as well.

Where do the racers store their drums of gas?

Why don't you ask them ......

Is it somehow different because I only want 91 octane?

Nope - octane doesn't play any role whatsoever.

In fact, the place that sells race gas in drums, has it stocked inside a warehouse not dissimilar from mine...

They may or may not be legal ....

Generally, just because I happen to observe someone else doing something, doesn't necessarily mean I'm gonna do it myself ....

Is there something special about those Sunoco drums? Maybe I should just buy a few empties from him?

Maybe ....

 

[MikeD74T]

zmoz, Contact a company that services gas pumps. They are usually private companies & will have all the materials/regulation information you need. MikeD74T

 

[zmoz]

Actually, yeah, I do have a hazmat driver with all the paperwork...but that was just theoretical. I do not plan on delivering my own gas...I'm just saying anyone is allowed to go buy a drum of it...maybe not legal, but I would guess most of those drums end up in a small time racer's garage.

My point being if I can have one drum of fuel, I can probably have four. But maybe I'm wrong, I don't know...

It would definately be different *IF* this was a residential area and *IF* it was attached to a dwelling. The allowable uses of my industrial building are pretty broad, and include all kinds of things I would be arrested for at my house.

 

[zmoz]

I was wrong about the zoning thing...I don't know where I read about a 600 gallon limit. This is what the city says under "allowable uses" for my space:

(48) Wholesaling, warehousing and storing of the following, provided that all outdoor storage shall be enclosed within site-obscuring fences or walls:
...
(f) Liquid fuel.

I would take the word "warehousing" to mean "indoor storage", and "liquid fuel" to be gasoline, no?

That doesn't mean there aren't of course other regulations...

 

[rswyan]

Actually, yeah, I do have a hazmat driver with all the paperwork...but that was just theoretical. I do not plan on delivering my own gas ...

Good .... I'll tell Dispatch I'm accepting loads bound for Oregon again

I'm just saying anyone is allowed to go buy a drum of it ... maybe not legal, but I would guess most of those drums end up in a small time racer's garage.

Given the cost, I'd imagine not many are buying more than one or two drums at a time.

My point being if I can have one drum of fuel, I can probably have four. But maybe I'm wrong, I don't know...

I'd imagine you can ....

The question, of course, is: What do you have to do to be in compliance with any applicable Federal, State & Local regulations ?

I would suggest to you, that rather calling the local fire marshall personally - which is nothing but an open invitation for unwarranted government scrutiny into your operations (...... expect a visit sometime shortly after you make inquiry .... because now you've made them curious), a good businessman might have an attorney who he could call and ask .... and if the attorney himself was unfamiliar with the specific legal issue at hand, that he (the attorney) could possibly make a discreet inquiry (without naming his client) to the local powers that be ....

I think I'll just ask the fire marshal where I am supposed to store my drums of "race fuel"...which I know is perfectly legal.

That's an absolutely great way to start (or continue) a relationship with any government official: intentionally misrepresent the situation and deliberately feed them false info ....

It ought to be real interesting later when the Fire Marshal drops by for a visit ..... and doesn't see any race cars about the place ......

That's what gets me about those "transfer tanks" not being approved for gasoline ... when I can go down to the fuel distributor and buy 110 octane in a 55 gallon drum. Come on, that drum was never "approved" for fuel storage and is probably quite thin.

Just could be that a shipping container .... and a container meant for storage and dispensing ....... aren't exactly the same thing ....... might be different issues attendant with each activity ..... dunno ....

It would definately be different *IF* this was a residential area and *IF* it was attached to a dwelling.

Of course it would.

Nevertheless, there are whatever regs there are that cover commercial activity in industrial areas .... there may be an existing C.O. (certificate of occupancy) that governs specifically what exact uses the building can be put to ....

The allowable uses of my industrial building are pretty broad, and include all kinds of things I would be arrested for at my house.

LOL .... no doubt.

Yeah ... the lease states that I cannot store gasoline UNLESS I get approval from the landlord,

Bingo - this is red flag city .... sounds to me like the landlord don't want you storing gas no way, no how .... if he didn't care one way or the other this provision wouldn't even be in there.

Maybe it was his experience with the former tenant - the bodyshop ?

BUT, it also says approval cannot be reasonably withheld if I demonstrate that it will be stored safely and within all laws. That's what I have to do.

I believe it would be "approval cannot be UNreasonably withheld" .....

You need to understand a couple of things here:

1. the burden is on you to demonstrate it can be done safely, and

2. who determines what is safe - and what criteria to they use to determine that ?

My guess is that the landlord is the one that makes the determination, and the criteria is whatever he says it is (arbitrary)

If ya really wanna go down this road and be halfway responsible about it, ya might wanna pick up the following and read it .... cost ya $37 for the PDF download or hardcopy (non-member price):

National Fire Protection Association 30A: Code for Motor Fuel Dispensing Facilities and Repair Garages, 2008 Edition

I will guarantee you that the Fire Marshall and your (and your landlord's) insurance company's underwriters are familiar with it (probably intimately familiar)

I'm going to take a stab here - based on what you have written in this thread and others - and say that you are involved in some sort of commercial enterprise.

It is clear you are occupying (rent, lease) someone else's property .... (as the owner of commercial property myself, which I have leased to a business, it's a subject near and dear to my heart) .... so here's a few questions/topics to think about:

1. Do you carry any sort of general liability insurance for your business ?

2. If the answer to No. 1 is yes, do you plan to check with your insurance agent as to what the implications are to you (and your policy/coverage) if you are storing large quantities of gasoline (Class III Hazardous Material) as part of your business operations ?

Could be a very big deal ....

3. Who carries the property insurance (Fire, Damage, & Physical Loss) on the buildings and property you occupy - you or the landlord ?

BTW:

In Oregon apparently only offroad fuel is allowed to be sold without ethanol. You cannot buy it at any gas pump - and for that matter, you aren't even allowed to pump your own gas!

Ethanol-free gasoline now available to Oregon motorists

 

[rswyan]

I would take the word "warehousing" to mean "indoor storage", and "liquid fuel" to be gasoline, no?

No !

The first thing you need to learn about reading anything legal (laws, regulations, codes, etc.) is unless there are specific definitions for things defined directly in the laws, etc. you need to construe whatever is stated by the plain meaning of the language - that's a legal term BTW:

Plain Meaning Rule

IOW, you don't go reading stuff into it that ain't there.

As an example: "I take the word "warehousing" to mean "indoor storage" ....."

.... really ? ......... do ya now ? ......................... why ?

Where did you see "indoor storage" mentioned in the code you quoted ?

Bzzzzzt - Flunk !

Nothing in there about "indoor storage" ...... but interestingly, outdoor storage is mentioned .....

Definition of "warehousing" from BusinessDictionary.com:

"1. 1. General: Performance of administrative and physical functions associated with storage of goods and materials. These functions include receipt, identification, inspection, verification, putting away, retrieval for issue, etc." [emphasis mine]

Nothing there about indoor or outdoor .... just things relating to storage ...

That doesn't mean there aren't of course other regulations...

Count on it ...... :thumbsup:

Since you did not provide a link to the actual zoning regs - so that any relevant portions can be read in their entirety, in context - I'd be disinclined to hazard any guesses as to what may or may not be permitted.

 

[rswyan]

Here's another link with a little taste of what's in that NFPA 30 thing (and the OSHA standards contained in 29 CFR 1910.106):

Flammable and Combustible Liquids: Storage and Handling

 

[zmoz]

I finally found the Oregon state fire code last night, I think building a small concrete block enclosure ("vault") inside my concrete block building will be allowed. It's a lot of legal-ese to disipher though...

I do have an antique boat and car both with high performance engines that any mechanic would tell you will run better on "race gas" than "pump gas", and they are both run offroad, so if anybody really needs to know why I want fuel, I have valid reasons.

I don't have my lease on hand to quote but basically it says if I can come up with a good reason, (like above) AND, I follow all the fire codes, then the landlord has to say yes.

I have read that premium is allowed for sale now without ethanol, but I have yet to find a station that sells it. There are NO "mom and pop" stations within any reasonable distance, thus the need for storage.


I KNOW I can store gas on the property...it's just a matter of how much I want to spend making other people happy...

I'm starting to wonder if the bus place next door will let me piggyback onto their private diesel station for a reasonable fee...

 

[rswyan]

I finally found the Oregon state fire code last night ..... It's a lot of legal-ese to disipher though...

Such is often the case when lawyers have been involved.

I think building a small concrete block enclosure ("vault") inside my concrete block building will be allowed

Might be a good idea ..... or it might be an absolutely bad idea .... read on.

I do have an antique boat and car both with high performance engines that any mechanic would tell you will run better on "race gas" than "pump gas", and they are both run offroad, so if anybody really needs to know why I want fuel, I have valid reasons.

I have no issue with you having it - my only point was that it would be unwise to represent the situation as one thing, when it is actually another.

I don't have my lease on hand to quote but basically it says if I can come up with a good reason, (like above) AND, I follow all the fire codes, then the landlord has to say yes.

Fair enough ..... just remember, it is often best to come to a mutually agreeable arrangement - once you burn a bridge (by attempting to use force) it can often come back to haunt you.

I have read that premium is allowed for sale now without ethanol, but I have yet to find a station that sells it. There are NO "mom and pop" stations within any reasonable distance, thus the need for storage.

Yeah - I'd imagine that distribution is fairly limited. Gotta think that they made it premium only so as to discourage folks from using it.

I KNOW I can store gas on the property...it's just a matter of how much I want to spend making other people happy ...

Yup ... that cost may be significant ..... or not .....

Beyond the matter of just the cost, there is the matter of safety ....

While I don't disagree with wedge40's contention about the safety aspects of gasoline getting out of hand (Oregon's prohibition on dispensing being a prime example, the retarded, utterly worthless nozzles on portable containers being another), it remains a fact that there is something to know about safety when dealing with large quantities of gasoline.

Diesel fuel and gasoline are very different things - one is far, far more dangerous than the other.

Diesel fuel is a combustible liquid .... it will burn under the right conditions, provided there is a hot enough ignition source - but it's a lot harder to ignite than gasoline.

Gasoline is a FLAMMABLE liquid ..... big difference .... one which many people don't understand (often erroneously referring to diesel as a flammable, which it is not)

I have intentionally thrown lit matches and burning cigarettes into open containers of diesel - they immediately go out - to illustrate to my children how hard (relatively) diesel is to ignite.

You cannot do that with gasoline (generally speaking) - it will go BOOM !

I have a 275 gallon IBC tote in my polebarn to store off-road diesel fuel ... and I don't have alot of concerns about it - the several containers of gasoline (total capacity of 11 gallons) that I store in my (attached) garage causes me much more concern. The gasoline will eventually be moved to the polebarn (once it gets a little more completed) - to get it away from the house.

You really need to become fully edjamacated on properly storing and dealing with large quanities of gasoline .....

You speak of building a storage vault inside your landlord's building to store the gasoline in .... might be a good idea ... or it might be a bad idea ..... I really don't know .... but that's the point: I know that I don't know ..... and would need to find out.

I can tell ya one thing though - while it's possible that a storage vault might be a great idea for storing gasoline ..... there is one significant potential issue - if you then add dispensing as well, from that vault, into the equation, it may become a very bad idea. Here's why:

When you are merely storing gasoline the containers will be sealed. Dispensing involves breaking any seal and exposing the gasoline to air - which will create fumes.

Fumes (a mixture of gas in air) = explosion hazard.

Confined space (ie. storage vault) = a place for fumes to accumulate.

Couple issues that you've raised in this thread or previous threads:

1. Plumbing multiple drums together in order for ease of filling ..... I am not particularly certain whether is would be ok or not - so don't automatically assume that it would be. There could be reasons why it would be a very bad idea (multiple joints/connection = more chances for leaks) - find out what is the safe way and then do that.

2. Pressurizing a tank with compressed air as a dispensing mechanism - this is absolutely a very, very bad idea - for several reasons:

The first reason is that steel 55 gallon drums are not designed for this purpose - regular steel 55's are largely designed as a transport/storage container. There is, no doubt, some safety factor built into their construction, to allow for pressurization due to atmospheric and temperature changes - but they are not designed be repeatedly pressurized with the amount of pressure it will take to get liquid to flow - particularly when the drum is almost empty and you are drawing from the bottom of the drum.

This is something I have personal experience with - having done it with a crimped steel 55 gallon drum (containing diesel fuel) .... the drum head was distorted out (permanently) by roughly a 1/2".

After doing it once or twice I went to Tractor Supply and spent the $100+ on a proper dispensing pump, rated for combustible/flammable liquids.

To really understand why it is a bad idea one needs to have a basic understanding of hydraulics - specifically pressure vs. surface area - and the amount of force developed.

The second reason is the medium being used as the pressure source: air .... (would be a slightly different story if you were using CO2 or Argon)

Gasoline, absent a sufficient quantity of air (oxygen), will not burn ..... the only trouble with that is, it takes very, very little air for gasoline to become flammable ...... very little.

Now, wonder what would happen if you gave a large quantity of gasoline a large quantity of air ? (under pressure)

Simple answer: you get a really frickin' big blowtorch ..... think lotsa fire .....

While gasoline is flammable, a gasoline/air mixture (in the right quantities) is not just flammable ..... it's EXPLOSIVE.

I'm starting to wonder if the bus place next door will let me piggyback onto their private diesel station for a reasonable fee...

Could be a lot of potential upsides ..... worth checking out I'd say.

 

[wvpolekat]

As it applies to asking the fire marshal about storing your race gas....

WHY you are storing it is none of their business or concern. WHAT and HOW you are storing is their concern.

Fire marshal will care less what you are going to burn the fuel in, he just wants to know what the fuel is, how and where you will be storing it and dispensing it.

 

[LBrown59]

I'm starting to wonder if the bus place next door will let me piggyback onto their private diesel station for a reasonable fee...

How would that work; i though you wanted/needed gasoline ?

 

[atgreene]

I have 3 fuel tanks on a concrete pad at my house. On road, off road and gasoline. State only requires a dike or double wall tank if total gallons are over 1000.

FWIW, I also happen to be a FF who does inspections from time to time. As long as you do a standard install w/o trying something that it untested you will probably find little resistance. Do it to code and keep it low-key.

 

[zmoz]

rswyan, I fully understand the flammability of gasoline. If only you knew what a pyro I am. As to it's dangerous/explosive nature, compare it to a 200 gallon propane tank so frequently found in people's yards and right next to their houses. Yeah, I know it's not gasoline, but, it's a highly flammable/explosive liquid fuel under enourmous pressure and most people don't ever give it a second thought. I imagine if I asked the landlord or the fire marshal if I could have a 200 gallon LPG tank for a heater, nobody would bat an eye.

How would that work; i though you wanted/needed gasoline ?

As in, add a smaller gasoline tank next to the diesel tank, and let them use it too. They've got the wide open fueling space that makes nearly all the hazards disappear. Interestingly, they don't seem to be in compliance with the zoning I read and posted - because I can clearly see their fuel tank and bus storage yard that has no "site obscuring" fence or walls...

On the other hand there is a full on Texaco station for sale around the corner...new in ground fiberglass lined tanks. In the summer I bet I could sell a lot of premium non ethanol to boaters around here. Anybody got about $350k I could barrow?