How hot is too hot?

[American Bulldog]

As most of you know, I have a new PT 1460 with a 64 HP Deutz Diesel. I have researched many topics on overheating in this forum. I also have seen that there have been a few cases of engine bay fires. As always, heat is the enemy.

So, I have a few questions.

1. How hot can the Deutz get before it is overheating? Mine routinely hangs around 200 degrees on the gauge. Does it warn you, or shutdown? Or does it just start running rough?

2. How hot can the hydraulic fluid get? No gauge on this, but by feeling the tank, it probably is around 160 degrees when I am mowing. Terry from PT said 180 is OK, but I would like to hear the board's opinions.

3. Has anyone tried running the Deutz without the oil cooler exit air deflector? I would think that this would lower the engine temp greatly, but the heat would go up into the hydraulic oil cooler more. Seems like I have a lot more headroom on the hydraulic fluid, but not sure. I could easily upgrade the hydro fan to improve this.

4. I saw some info about how Deutz has an "AG cooler" for better cooling. Has anyone tried this? Do the new tractors come with this?

Thanks all, I am interested to hear your responses. These are great machines, but it is quite obvious that PT is not particularly interested in dotting all the i's and crossing all the t's on their engineering. I seem to get better info from the users on this board than from PT itself.

 

[woodlandfarms]

I do not feel that removing the deflector is a good idea, but I do feel that you can raise it and loose 10 degrees (that is what I feel mine did).

I carefully removed the 4 oil cooler bolts (Do not bump the cooler or you are going to get an oil leak). I got longer bolts and then cut some pipe to create riser sleeves. I think they are 2" max height and I made the ones in to the inside of the engine shorter than the outside. On the one side (not in the pictures) I just drilled a new hole and applies only one bolt through the shield.

A bit of air goes around this rig, but most is still pushed out the side of the tractor. For me it has kept the engine much cooler.

Heck with it, here are some pictures.

your temps all seem right on and having run this for a few years I don't feel that there is need for additional cooling unless you are in super dusty conditions and need to run for a long time. There is a huge need for an oil level meter that sounds a warning for the hydro tank. That for me is the big weak link is it is hard to detect a hydraulic oil leak when operating and only becomes apparent when the tractor stops and smoke comes out from under the hood. There is no alarm or guage and that is a big failure point for my and my PT.

Also, cut your side panel and weld hinges on, makes the cleaning process much easier but don't do a bad job like me. (watch for your lid holder, it cause me problems on this mod, some people moved theres to the other side which would be smart)

 

[American Bulldog]

I do not feel that removing the deflector is a good idea, but I do feel that you can raise it and loose 10 degrees (that is what I feel mine did).

Side panel idea is really good. My PT is a little tighter, and I don't even have the ability to raise the deflector 2", as it would hit the oil cooler. The deflector is probably about 1 1/2" away, so it restricts the flow of both oil coolers, lol. I may try to remove it and see what happens.

 

[American Bulldog]

Yeah I realized that the deflector is a PT part, not a Deutz part. The only drawback I see is that taking it off may affect the hydraulic oil temp. It will definitely help the engine temp, as it is restricive. Although it directs the heat toward the side, it doesn't exhaust it all the way. I'll bet that most of that heat is getting sucked through the top anyway.

The lower cover comes off so fast, that I don't see myself adding hinges. Just two bolts and a 13 mm wrench - maybe takes a minute.

 

[woodlandfarms]

We have the same engine if nothing else.

There is a ton of real-estate in that top cooler and I don't think that adding the engine heat will be much of a change, other than it WILL increase the general heat under the hood. Again i don't think by a significant amount.

But for sure that deflector that PT has is very restrictive. And probably the whole Deutz series by PT suffers from the restrictive nature of that deflector.

As for the side door, I didn't like taking off both bolts. I found myself less likely to properly blow out the engine when I had to remove both of the bolts.

Carl

 

[American Bulldog]

So I took off the deflector, and the motor temp dropped about 10 degrees. It runs about 190 now. Not sure what has happened with the hydraulic fluid temp, but I wasn't mowing anyway. I think I would like to upgrade the fan, and put in a relay for the temp switch.

Instead of putting hinges on the motor, I would rather fabricate some sort of toolbox on the PT somewhere. I could then keep my 13 mm wrench on board, as well as some other handy tools, including a chainsaw scrench, and some rags. I also like to keep PT Blaster, to blow out the dirt out of the hydraulic fittings before connecting them. A pair of gloves on board would be nice as well.

Any suggestions as to the best spot, and the best way to get it done?

 

[woodlandfarms]

All of us PT owners bemoan not having a place to store tools. Lots of places to think about, none particularly good. Someone has a roof rack, another a container on top of the engine cover, a couple of baskets on the back and a conversation about welding amo boxes behind the rear wheels.

For me I look at the space along the side above the front wheels but it isn't really big.

Don't forget a hammer. You will constantly be knocking your blades free on your mower.

 

[ponytug]

If keeping the hydraulic oil cool is an issue, you might consider adding an additional fan on the engine side of the cowling. Several users have added one and it appears to drop the oil temperature 10-20 degrees. One user put a larger fan on the hydraulic cooler and put the existing one on the side of the cowling pulling in fresh air.

The ag cooler is an available option; it has no intervening metal zig-zags between the oil cooling tubes. This means it is less bothered by dust. HOWEVER, it is taller to get enough cooling, and it is very expensive ($2k+/-?). To get one, you have to get your engine serial number and give it to Deutz. When I looked into it, there wasn't one in the US for the 45HP engine. I took that as a sign that it wasn't a common part.

All the best,

Peter

 

[Stampeder]

Not a duetz but I have a Montana 50 hp with a Mitsubishi engine.

Living in Texas it gets well over 100 degrees and we continue to hay in this. Engine gets good and hot.

I replaced my engine and transmission/hydraulic oils with synthetic. I was amazed at how much the engine and transmission/hydraulics temperature dropped. Even under load it was a substantial decrease in temperature due to the better lubrication of the synthetic.
My dealer had recommended the synthetic change. He said to do it only after the tractor was a year or two old.

My two cents.
Glenn.

 

[American Bulldog]

Not a duetz but I have a Montana 50 hp with a Mitsubishi engine.

Living in Texas it gets well over 100 degrees and we continue to hay in this. Engine gets good and hot.

I replaced my engine and transmission/hydraulic oils with synthetic. I was amazed at how much the engine and transmission/hydraulics temperature dropped. Even under load it was a substantial decrease in temperature due to the better lubrication of the synthetic.
My dealer had recommended the synthetic change. He said to do it only after the tractor was a year or two old.

My two cents.
Glenn.

That is different. I used to be into car racing, and the race guys never liked using synthetic oils, because they said that the synthetics don't transmit heat as well. Maybe the oil temp is lower, but the "real" temperature of the engine may be higher. Not saying you are wrong, but just keep that in mind.

With the hydraulics, I would think that the synthetic would help, as it would run a little cooler, and it would not break down as fast. Plus it doesn't get as thick at low winter temps.

Thanks for the info. In general I have always been a big fan of synthetics.

 

[American Bulldog]

So I was mowing this weekend for about 2 hours at full throttle, and the oil temperature got up to about 220 degrees. When I disconnected the mower, I needed gloves to handle the hydraulic lines, as they were probably at about 160-180 degree range.

Is 220 degrees too hot for the motor?

 

[woodlandfarms]

I think you are at the high end of the spectrum. I think 240 is danger zone on the Deutz. Ir run at 180 to 200...

I do NOT mow at full throttle, I hold it around 2400 RPM or so tops, 2100 if the grass or slope is not severe.

How hot was it outside? Did you do the mod to the baffle? did you blow out the motor before you started?

 

[American Bulldog]

I think you are at the high end of the spectrum. I think 240 is danger zone on the Deutz. Ir run at 180 to 200...

I do NOT mow at full throttle, I hold it around 2400 RPM or so tops, 2100 if the grass or slope is not severe.

How hot was it outside? Did you do the mod to the baffle? did you blow out the motor before you started?

Yes I probably could mow at less than full throttle. This temp was with the baffle off, and it was about 80 degrees outside. The oil cooler was cleaned before I started.

I have the same motor as your 1850, yet I am pushing 1800 extra pounds of weight, so it is going to work the Deutz hard. I wasn't going easy either, as I was pretty much mowing as fast as possible. I was mowing mostly sloped terrain. Next time I will put the baffle back on and run it again. I think it will be worse.

It locked in at 220 after about half an hour, and never really moved after that.

The baffle comes pretty close to the hydraulic cooler, and forces the hydraulic cooler to take it's air from around the muffler. That can't be much better. When I do just stop and go work, the motor seems to run cooler, but obviously when mowing it is a bit different.

 

[American Bulldog]

Well I pulled the trigger and got a new SPAL fan with 50% more CFM. I also bought a relay for the fan, as this one pulls 20 AMPS. Hopefully the alternator can take it.....

 

[MossRoad]

So I was mowing this weekend for about 2 hours at full throttle, and the oil temperature got up to about 220 degrees. When I disconnected the mower, I needed gloves to handle the hydraulic lines, as they were probably at about 160-180 degree range.

Is 220 degrees too hot for the motor?

If its any consolation, I cannot touch the fittings on my PT425 after mowing either. I have to use gloves, too.

 

[ponytug]

Source? Size? Price? Just curious...

All the best,

Peter

Well I pulled the trigger and got a new SPAL fan with 50% more CFM. I also bought a relay for the fan, as this one pulls 20 AMPS. Hopefully the alternator can take it.....

 

[American Bulldog]

Source? Size? Price? Just curious...

All the best,

Peter

I went on the SPAL website, and found that the fan I have is the weakest 16" fan that SPAL makes. Pretty much every single 16" SPAL fan has the same mounting, so it made total sense to stay with the name brand, as opposed to getting something different. I wrote down a couple part numbers of upgrade fans and went on EBAY seeing what I could find. I ended up picking up the new one for about $120. I also bought a relay to switch it for $15. This beefed up fan should lower the hydraulic oil temp, and it should scavenge more heat off the motor too.

The stock fan is part# 3010.0400

http://www.spalusa.com/pdf/30100400_SPEC.PDF#view=FitH

The replacement fan is part# 3010.2049

http://www.spalusa.com/pdf/30102049_SPEC.PDF#view=FitH

I think that running hot shortens the life of every component on the machine, and spending $135 now to lower the temperature is money well spent. If you look through this forum you can find more than one instance of problems where heat might have been the cause. You will also find a few instances of engine fires, where heat was definitely a contributor.

 

[ponytug]

Thanks! The details are very helpful.

All the best,

Peter

 

[wasabi]

I went on the SPAL website, and found that the fan I have is the weakest 16" fan that SPAL makes. Pretty much every single 16" SPAL fan has the same mounting, so it made total sense to stay with the name brand, as opposed to getting something different. I wrote down a couple part numbers of upgrade fans and went on EBAY seeing what I could find. I ended up picking up the new one for about $120. I also bought a relay to switch it for $15. This beefed up fan should lower the hydraulic oil temp, and it should scavenge more heat off the motor too.

The stock fan is part# 3010.0400

http://www.spalusa.com/pdf/30100400_SPEC.PDF#view=FitH

The replacement fan is part# 3010.2049

http://www.spalusa.com/pdf/30102049_SPEC.PDF#view=FitH

I think that running hot shortens the life of every component on the machine, and spending $135 now to lower the temperature is money well spent. If you look through this forum you can find more than one instance of problems where heat might have been the cause. You will also find a few instances of engine fires, where heat was definitely a contributor.

infallible logic that. i too appreciate the details and will likely switch on our 1850. thx!

 

[brad123]

I was just wondering as to what engine model you had and what runs the varying speed of the fan if there is one... Just some specifics as to how it cools.. I run 5 deutz ag tractors so was just wondering how was cooled