Caroni Flail Belt Failure

[leonz]

I glad it finally behaved for you and you were able to install the belts.

I dont remember off hand if I mentioned it previously but the B43 from Gates Rubber Inc. in a web belt is $1,400.00 USD and change OUCH!!!!!!!!

It scared me so much I never looked at Goodyear or Bridgestone/Firestone:laughing::thumbsup:


I have the pictures and and measurements for the Mathews hangers and knives and all I have to do is figure how to upload them to my mailbox to post here for everyone I have one of these crazy camera phones from verizon etc., and i find I am quite often filming the fuzz in my work clothes.

leon

 

[Bill the Elder]

My thanks to all of you, especially Island Tractor, Iron Horse, and Leon.

I was able to get my first acre of ungrazed pasture mowed without incident. After running the mower for an hour I was able to touch the shielding without any discomfort. I'd call that success.

Please excuse my impudence at offering a few possibilities re the great belt failure mystery. My mower is 2 years old with very light usage and each year I've faithfully greased each zerk fitting on the mower. Today when I put grease into the zerk on the pto pulley it took a large amount of lube. I finally heard a pop and I hope that's not going to cause a problem. However I put a much larger amount of lubricant in than I think I should have need to. Could that lack of lubrication have resulted in overheating? I also noted that I was able to obtain the 3/8" deflection with far less tightening of the tensioner than the unit had on arrival. Perhaps a function of the metric sized belt? I don't know but presented for your consideration.

Thanks again and good mowing.

 

[leonz]

flail mower Hospital call whoopsie

My thanks to all of you, especially Island Tractor, Iron Horse, and Leon.

I was able to get my first acre of ungrazed pasture mowed without incident. After running the mower for an hour I was able to touch the shielding without any discomfort. I'd call that success.

Please excuse my impudence at offering a few possibilities re the great belt failure mystery. My mower is 2 years old with very light usage and each year I've faithfully greased each zerk fitting on the mower. Today when I put grease into the zerk on the pto pulley it took a large amount of lube. I finally heard a pop and I hope that's not going to cause a problem.


PLEASE tell me it was not the left or right rotor bearing !?????

was it the fitting in the center of the V belt pulley hidden under the belt guard on the left side

Lets hope it was this case below:
Sometimes when you grease the
2 U joints or the female section of
the propeller shaft from the tractor
to the gearbox they will pop just like
a balloon.

If your PTO shafts have the countersink fittings in the female
splines of either end of the PTO shaft they will pop also if they
have a tight fit from tension on the PTO shaft and splines

I need to ask you to do this and ot pains me to ask but


lower it on some hardwood blocks and use a flashlight to check the inner bearing seals of the main rotor bearings please;

I hope that you do not have a blown rotor bearing seal


If it is the one I think it is that you are describing it is the grease fitting at the end of the driven shaft exiting the gearbox which is connected to the upper enclosed pulley and the oil seal may be blown now but possibly not.

please be sure to check the oil level on the gearbox after the next run and then remove the belt guard and look for oil around the upper pulley shaft where it joins the shaft through the weldment it is mounted to and if there is oil you will have to add oil more often, if it is blown until you can replace it or have it replaced.



I hate to have to ask you this but you need to







However I put a much larger amount of lubricant in than I think I should have need to. Could that lack of lubrication have resulted in overheating? I also noted that I was able to obtain the 3/8" deflection with far less tightening of the tensioner than the unit had on arrival. Perhaps a function of the metric sized belt? I don't know but presented for your consideration.

Thanks again and good mowing.

 

[Eagleview]

Today when I put grease into the zerk on the pto pulley it took a large amount of lube. I finally heard a pop and I hope that's not going to cause a problem.

If it was in fact the grease nipple in the end of the rotor shaft (in the center of the pulley) you have now got a major problem . The over greasing has forced the seal out of the end of the rotor and you wont be able to ever keep grease in the bearing or the dust out . I'm afraid you now have to turn the flail on it's back and remove the rotor to renew the seal .

Elation to deflation , please don't feel to bad , it's only a few hours work and it will be as good as new again .

 

[IslandTractor]

I have to agree that you may have over greased the bearing and that the audible pop was the seal being blown. Follow IronHorse's suggestion. If you are not comfortable with the mechanics involved, most garages and certainly any tractor dealer mechanic could help.

The key to proper greasing of the mower is to simply add about five to ten pumps to the zerks each time you grease. You don't want to try to fill the chamber because you have no way to judge when you might be overfilling. Greasing about once a day or after each six hours or so of mowing seems about right.

 

[Bill the Elder]

oooppppss! Yet another casualty based on ignorance. Do I dare mow another few acres before I get help pulling this thing apart?

I assume I get the replacement seal from Agri Supply. Is there one seal that goes out more than the other or would I be well advised to just buy one of each?

 

[texbaylea]

oooppppss! Yet another casualty based on ignorance. Do I dare mow another few acres before I get help pulling this thing apart?

I assume I get the replacement seal from Agri Supply.

Inspect it carefully before you tear into it. You can get air trapped in your grease gun especially if you have just changed the cartridge. That will make an audible pop when it comes out.

Vernon

 

[IslandTractor]

oooppppss! Yet another casualty based on ignorance. Do I dare mow another few acres before I get help pulling this thing apart?

I assume I get the replacement seal from Agri Supply. Is there one seal that goes out more than the other or would I be well advised to just buy one of each?

You should be able to mow another few acres. Your bearings are certainly greased at this point. Paradoxically, you might want to add a few pumps of grease after each acre as you won't know how quickly the grease is leaking out now that the seal is likely blown.

And don't feel bad about this sort of error. Live and learn. We've all done similar things.

 

[Eagleview]

There are two major consequences to over greasing the bearings , 1/ is that the seals can be dislodged and 2/ the bearing will over heat and fail . As strange as that may sound , the balls or rollers slogging around in that much grease overheats and kills them .

I'm not sure of the design of your rotor but I would think it is the same as mine . It will have two seals on each end of the rotor , 1 small and 1 large seal on each end .

 

[leonz]

I hope it was an air bubble for sure.


If not:

here we go;


If you tackle the the little paisano your self-


auto parts store:

1. Blue shop towels 1 roll
2. 2 magnetic ash trays -nut and bolt grabbers
3. small tub of DL hand cleaner
4. blue tarp 8 by 10 to set mower on.
5. large bottle of isopropyl alcohol to use for parts cleaning, seal flange cleaning-(where the metal seal edge meets the stuffing box) and dust and grease cutting-drug store/sams club/cosco/BJ's etc.

6. several plastic putty knives for scraping excess rubber and thick rubber off mower. steel putty knife for the interior of mower around the support #28
AKA a stuffing box-

7. emery cloth
8. crocus cloth
9. internal and external snap ring pliers -or kit with interchangable tips and handles.
10. small set of metric ratchet box wrenches
11. small set of metric box and open end wrenches
12. blue loctite for nuts and bolts
13. small claw foot tool to pull inner and outer seals
14. small dead blow hammer or rubber mallet

6. cont.
to clean the mounting of the support #28 where it meets the side weldment and the support where it attaches to the side plate weldment.


one seal driver - when you get the new oil seal see if you can find a piece of white PVC pipe that will allow you to slide the seal lips over the pipe outside diameter to allow the safe installation of the seal in the recessed bore and step where the seal base metal will rest. Be aware of the spring in the seal lip if it has one- to hold the seal in place under tension around the shaft to hold the lubricant and keep the dirt out.

Also obtain a piece of white PCV that is the diameter of the seals metal retainer to allow you to safely tap the seal in place-FYI if the seal metal portion is not flush it is not fully seated!!!

Put a taper on the edge of the inner pvc tube with some 100 grit paper-not a sharp one or you will tear the seal!!!!!

PS the blue tarp is for the fumble fingers moments and zero grass hiding parts problems.


PS be sure to wrap the bearing in a blue towel to keep the dirt out of it and clean the inner bore and outer bore with some alcohol as the bearing will be likely to be a tight slip fit- whre placing it in the freezer before installing it will allow the outer bearing race to slide in easily and then just letit warm up and finish the installation with the remainder of the parts




be sure to clean the snap ring grooves with toothpicks and a piece of paper towel using the alcohol

NOOOO you cannot use a thin screw driver to remove the snap rings or put them back without damage to them!

you may be able to obtain the seals locally if the numbers on the seal metal flange are visible- if not order 2 pair of them and put the second set in a zip lock bag for the next time.


IF you are ready and able to install the dual seal support ove the rotor shaft

To ease installation

use Video camera and good light to record the disassembly portion in case you have extra parts Like any good mechanic should have left overs -no not really.



Patience
small CO2 fire extinguisher
patience
open seal on CO2 fire extinguisher
patience
insert tube over the rotor shaft end and squeeze the discharge valve to freeze the shaft and reduce its outside diameter
heavily coat with CO2 and wait a few moments to slip the inner seal and support #28 over the end machining where the seal rides
patience

more patience

begin assembling the small parts one by one and continue to reassemble the components


refder to video tape if required



further help available if surgery will be attemped for small donation to your local ASPCA chapter


leonz:thumbsup::drool: I love machinery parts rebuilds

 

[Eagleview]

Your going to run out of ink one day .

 

[leonz]

Only when the roo's highjack the Pacific Princess when it is in port and take over the tasmanian statehouse and disown the tasmainian devil and Warner Brothers:thumbsup:

 

[Bill the Elder]

The never ending story: A mechanically inept man and his flail. The epic continues:

Went down this morning flashlight in hand expecting to be able to look under the mower and determine if I had done what we fear I had done. Suprise, suprise, suprise: you can't look at anything because the rotor is totally sealed. Took off the belt cover, no indication of any leakage of grease anywhere but that may mean nothing.

Sooooooo what do you mechanically inclined gentlepeople do when confronted with this situation. Does one just rip in and pull things apart enough to visual the seals? Are there any indicators from using the mower that will tip me off to a blown seal before additional damage is done?

Given that Caroni provides somebody like me just about no help whatsoever with their "documentation" would it be possible to put together a "Help and Hints in dealing successfully with your Caroni Flail Mower" document from all the information that has been posted on the threads here at Tractor By Net?

Like I said I sure don't mind working hard, but I don't have time to work dumb or reinvent any wheels if I can help it.

Thanks guys, I'm going to go mow an hour and see how things go.

 

[IslandTractor]

There is only one person on TBN that I am pretty sure has seen the guts of the Caroni drive system and bearings directly. DavesTractors on the Mahindra forum is a dealer who used to carry the Caroni flail line and has replaced bearings. You might want to send him a PM as he probably doesn't read these threads.

Let us know what words of wisdom he has.

Otherwise the only thing I could imagine doing to confirm that the seal is popped would be to gently add more grease and see if you feel any resistance. I would imagine that if the seal is gone it would be easy to add lots more grease without resistance. If you feel resistance though you should stop. However, I'd talk to a more experienced mechanic before attempting something like that. I hope DavesTractors can help.

 

[leonz]

about your mower;

Edit: the quick and the dead fix or check would be an infra red non contact thermometer
and with it you will knw for sure and the smallest ones are under $75 USD from what I remember,
your local NAPA or autozone might have them in stock or obtain them in a day or so.

Edit: this may be overkill but you can buy temperature sensitive crayons that melt etc. I think they are still available.

lets hope it was just a burp.


1. you will need to follow the bearing housing(s)
temperature now to be better informed of the bearing(s)
overall condition.

a. the burned odor of grease is one sure indication while mowing or finding
the grease heated to the point where it is dripping out of the seals on
either side.

b. housing temperature will be the quickest inidcator as it will be radiating
heat until it seizes the rotor completely


2. I would do several things right off the bat if youu have no evidence of
seal failure (insert seal joke here) and they are not barking from under
the mower hood or sunning on the porch. end seal joke

a. visit the mcmaster carr home page

b. type in grease cups

b1. call the sales desk for mcmaster carr

c. order 2 of the spring pressurised grease cups for metered delivery of grease for the rotor bearings on you flail mower.

c1. ask for 2 ninety degree fittings female/female NOT PIPE ELBOWS-steel hydraulic fittings which are a 2-2 female female ninety degree fitting for each rotor bearing- (they would also have metric fittings for the zerks and I am unsure if they use a standard SAE fitting but one trip to the auto parts store will tell you that)


which are used to install in place of the zerk fittings on the mower with 2 male to male straight fittings one of which will be installed in the zerk threads with an open end wrench using one drop of blue loctite only.



c1a. order 2 long grease hoses for the elbows and two 2-2 female straight pipe adapters which will be tightened on the end of each grease hose.

c1b. order 6 loom clamps sized for the 2 grease hoses to anchor the grease hoses to the mower frame above the bearings or near the gearbox to aid in protecting them.

c1c. buy some bolts and flat washers and for the mounting hole diameter-fine thread and purchase nylock nuts.

Drill three holes in the mower hood for the loom clamp bolts to secure them to the mower for each hose.

Iin order to properly manage the grease for the pressurised cup and grease hoses you must fill the hose first with grease then pump some grease into the cup and fill it-but not over fill it!!!! it will break/rupture with the spring pressure used to push the grease through the metering hole.

The grease cups will only deliver grease when the bearing is moving while mowing and the clear polycarbonate housing allows easy management of the grease supply(no it will not blow the seal if it is intact.


You might spend 80ish with shipping but it will be some thing that you will be able to see every day when mowing- FYI put a heavy plastic bag over the grease cup and secure it with a rubber band to keep out the dust and dirt as the housing is vented above the grease piston to allow it to move.


But checking the bearing housings temperature while mowing will work as well etc.

The nice thing about the grease cups is you know how much grease you are using and you cannot over grease a bearing with good seals as the bearing with bad seals will allow all the grease to quickly exit the the cup and empties it and the cup assembly must be remove to fill it again.

If we are lucky it may have just burped on you and saved you a lot of work- I hope anyway.

 

[SPYDERLK]

The never ending story: A mechanically inept man and his flail. The epic continues:

Went down this morning flashlight in hand expecting to be able to look under the mower and determine if I had done what we fear I had done. Suprise, suprise, suprise: you can't look at anything because the rotor is totally sealed. Took off the belt cover, no indication of any leakage of grease anywhere but that may mean nothing.

Sooooooo what do you mechanically inclined gentlepeople do when confronted with this situation. Does one just rip in and pull things apart enough to visual the seals? Are there any indicators from using the mower that will tip me off to a blown seal before additional damage is done?

Given that Caroni provides somebody like me just about no help whatsoever with their "documentation" would it be possible to put together a "Help and Hints in dealing successfully with your Caroni Flail Mower" document from all the information that has been posted on the threads here at Tractor By Net?

Like I said I sure don't mind working hard, but I don't have time to work dumb or reinvent any wheels if I can help it.

Thanks guys, I'm going to go mow an hour and see how things go.

Dont worry about it. Just be sure to grease regularly on that fitting [after every use]. Even if the seal is blown that bearing will last a long time with regular greasing flushing the contaminants out
larry

 

[IslandTractor]

Dont worry about it. Just be sure to grease regularly on that fitting [after every use]. Even if the seal is blown that bearing will last a long time with regular greasing flushing the contaminants out
larry

Interesting perspective. For someone who does not mow 8 hours a day and can stop every hour or so to squirt some more grease into the bearings I'd guess you are right on. Even if you burn up the bearings, the amount of labor involved is very close to what would be needed to fix the seal anyway. I don't believe the bearings are that expensive either so it is not like you are risking the rotor shaft ($$$$) or another expensive part.

 

[Eagleview]

it is not like you are risking the rotor shaft ($$$$) or another expensive part.

Unfortunately , the first thing that happens when a rotor bearing fails is that the bearing seizes and spins on the shaft and either welds itself to the shaft or machines the shaft undersize so a new bearing will not be a tight fit .

It's two hours work to pull the rotor out and replace the seals .

 

[Bill the Elder]

Lots to think about from a variety of perspectives on how to deal with this issue.

I get the feeling that Iron Horse has the experience, tools, and temperament to deal with just about any problem that comes up with his equipment. I don't have any of those things. Maybe with the tools, a good place to work and an actual service manual I could (with some help) take that rotor out, replace the seals and put it back together again: Maybe. All I've got are pretty common hand tools, the ground and a exploded diagram of the assembly. 2 hours my Australian friend? More like a whole weekend if nothing went wrong, I didn't break anything more and I had the parts on hand. Can't afford the time for that during harvest and getting ready for winter.

Leon, wow have you got ideas. They look eminently practical and of great value but once again well over my skill, experience and tool level.

So for better or worse here's what I'm going to try. I've got between 3 and 4 more acres to mow before winter. I've wanted to buy one of those IR remote thermometers for some time now. Good reason to buy one. Any suggestions as to a good but not extravagant model for the small farm tool box. I'm going to put a few squirts of grease into that zerk then I'm going to monitor rotor temperatures every 2000' ( or a little over 600 meters for those of you who don't use archaic measuring units). If I start noting a temperature differential indicative of a bearing set beginning to overheat I will load the mower up and take it to my buddy's machine shop and we'll tear into it.

No evidence of overheating, well then maybe I got a break and something just burped and the seal is fine.

Thanks again to all of you who have taken the time to help me out here. If any of you were closer I would make presents of good potatoes, garlic, onions, shallots and the like. We grow great food on this farm. Keeping the machinery that assists us in that work in the best shape is an ongoing challenge for me. Thanks again for your help.

PS Just did a little checking and the Kintrex IRT0421 for a little under $50 including shipping looks like it is a solid value for the money. I'm just going to order it up and get things moving. Nice to be able to check trailer wheel bearings, axle temps and other areas of equipment that might be prone to damage from overheating.

 

[Eagleview]

According to this exploded diagram , you don't even have to remove the rotor . It looks like there are bearing caps that are simply withdrawn from the outside to service the bearings and seals .

By the way , if it was air trapped in a grease gun , it would not have made a noise . The gun would simply not work because of the air , so could not pump air to make a noise .