Ballast Can I get training wheels?

[sbakf]

I like my ANBO grapple and the L5740 it's attached to - but. Like several times before, I came real close yesterday to laying both on their side. So close that I think shifting my butt 2" to the left kept me from going over. One of my boys said left rear wheel was at least 2' off the ground (perhaps a bit more).

What was I doing? I was engaged in some clean-up in the woods and was trying to harvest a fallen cedar tree. The cedar was located on a short down slope (about 25 degrees), among some standing pines and was lying near perpendicular to the hill. The tree would have been an easy pull (uphill) except for the large diameter (3.5') root ball and attached roots. We cut the roots, but there was still a rather heavy red clay ball densely packed around the cut roots - all sitting in a somewhat shallow hole. Try as I might, with my tractor pointed downhill and the tree chained to my lowered grapple, I couldn't budge that root ball out of its hole. So, brought the tractor a little closer to try lifting (with chain) it out big mistake. First error, although I was near parallel to the slope of the hill, I was about 5-10 degrees off perpendicular with the line of the tree and attached chain. Second error, and the worst, was bumping my RPM's up above my usual max of 1,500. With first lift attempt and within 1/2 a second I found myself balanced on my right side wheels. I don't think grapple ever got above my grille during the lift. Needless to say, pucker factor was so intense that it took me a second or two to figure my next move think I released the brakes and lowered the loader arms simultaneously.

With another lesson learned, parked the tractor and backed my K5 Blazer down close to the cedar's root ball and linked the two with some chain. No problem with the pull of my K5 cedar popped out of its hole, rotated 90 degrees and followed it easily up the hill to an open pasture. Never would have expected such disparity in performance (i.e., pull, L5740 vs K5 Blazer).

As indicated above, this episode of balancing on two wheels, has happened more than once when working with my front loader. The hydraulics of such can truly make work on the farm/retreat much easier. Its power, however, unless engaged slowly, can bite you before you know it. More than once, I've snagged a tree root with my grapple and on lift raised both (loaded) rear tires off the ground. A pivot on front wheels, even with a heavy rotary cutter hanging off the 3-pt in the rear. Even so, lifting both rear wheels off the ground, although a bit spooky, doesn't scare me. It's those one-sided (L or R) lifts that can tear things up if they go too far.

I'm beginning to think, they make these tractors too light.

 

[ecoslik]

Very interesting tale of caution. Interesting, as in ... thank goodness it didn't end badly. :confused2:

I wonder if my foamed rears are much different in weight than your loaded tires.

I also have the L5740 HST with foamed rear tires and a Construction Attachments root grapple. In a few weeks, I will start in earnest to relocate 3 very large debris piles of trees and cuttings to an open pasture where I'll burn this winter (probably a # of burns). One of the debris piles is on the steep slope of a bank that leads down to a creek. My guess is that I should be able to lift while pointed downhill, but it seems that I would then turn 90 degrees in reverse (cross slope onto flat over 10-40 feet) and then motor as I then carried into the pasture. Obviously, the lesson of your tale would suggest that I reverse up the slope (onto flat) and then turn 90.

 

[TripleR]

Did you have any weight on your 3-point? I don't do much of anything without putting some weight on the hitch in addition to loaded tires on my tractors, especially on any incline.

 

[sbakf]

Did you have any weight on your 3-point? I don't do much of anything without putting some weight on the hitch in addition to loaded tires on my tractors, especially on any incline.

Yes - had some weight (box blade), but not near enough. When doing serious grapple work, I most always have my rotary cutter hanging on the back. In tight places, where extended length will cause problems, I'll go to my big rotary tiller. On this particular day, I had dropped my RC to do some BB work. My thinking was, it's a cedar - shouldn't be too heavy. Just didn't figure the weight of that clay packed root ball. Pressure washed that thing and, besides the clay, it was also packed with fist sized rocks.

Guess I could breakout some old texts and figure the physics of my error, but to what end. Bottom line - alignments were wrong and tractor mass (distribution) was inadequate for this job.

With this episode filed away, been thinking - what can I do to make such work safer? Outriggers ("training wheels") might have helped. How about the boom-less end of a backhoe attachment? Could I rig a way to attach my K5 (thru trailer hitch) to the 3-pt on my tractor? For the time being, if faced with similar circumstance, will either chain the rear-end of tractor down low on some adjacent trees or go do something else.

 

[Big Wave D]

I have an L-35 that came with the matching backhoe.

I use the backhoe 'arm' all the time like an animal would use its tail for counter balance. I'll swing it to the uphill side if I'm on a slope. Or, I'll extend it out horizontal to the ground for a greater counter weight to either help with traction or tipping if I have something very heavy in the bucket.

Your idea of using just the outriggers from a backhoe is an intriguing idea; however, I think you'd be missing the true counter weight and that's the arm. I've done like you've mentioned and put them out for 'stability', but it doesn't really offer any stability where you need it. If you're lifting something really heavy, the tractor is pivoting off the front axle and the stabilizer arms are going to be farthest from where you really need them.

Besides, you'd hate yourself for not having the arm to actually dig with as it was intended to do.

You may not think you need a backhoe, but once you own one, you can't believe how you ever got along without one. My backhoe itself weighs just under 1,200 pounds. It is a night and day difference using the FEL with some other counter weight attached to the back other than the backhoe.

I almost won't use the FEL without the backhoe attached. The hydraulics can pick the back of the tractor up effortlessly and it happens FAST. If I've only got RC or something else on for ballast, I go SLOW on initial raise up. I want to feel the load out first before committing full flow to the job of lifting.

 

[brin]

Very interesting tale of caution. Interesting, as in ... thank goodness it didn't end badly. :confused2:

I wonder if my foamed rears are much different in weight than your loaded tires.

I also have the L5740 HST with foamed rear tires and a Construction Attachments root grapple. In a few weeks, I will start in earnest to relocate 3 very large debris piles of trees and cuttings to an open pasture where I'll burn this winter (probably a # of burns). One of the debris piles is on the steep slope of a bank that leads down to a creek. My guess is that I should be able to lift while pointed downhill, but it seems that I would then turn 90 degrees in reverse (cross slope onto flat over 10-40 feet) and then motor as I then carried into the pasture. Obviously, the lesson of your tale would suggest that I reverse up the slope (onto flat) and then turn 90.

Just keep in mind...take it slow and easy...if something goes wrong and you are pointed downhill on a steep slope, like the load in your grapple shifts or drops and you put in the clutch you will be freewheeling up and over what you were lifting and that won't probably end well..slopes and an FEL do not go well together - please keep that in mind. Be careful...

 

[TripleR]

Yes - had some weight (box blade), but not near enough. When doing serious grapple work, I most always have my rotary cutter hanging on the back. In tight places, where extended length will cause problems, I'll go to my big rotary tiller. On this particular day, I had dropped my RC to do some BB work. My thinking was, it's a cedar - shouldn't be too heavy. Just didn't figure the weight of that clay packed root ball. Pressure washed that thing and, besides the clay, it was also packed with fist sized rocks.

Guess I could breakout some old texts and figure the physics of my error, but to what end. Bottom line - alignments were wrong and tractor mass (distribution) was inadequate for this job.

With this episode filed away, been thinking - what can I do to make such work safer? Outriggers ("training wheels") might have helped. How about the boom-less end of a backhoe attachment? Could I rig a way to attach my K5 (thru trailer hitch) to the 3-pt on my tractor? For the time being, if faced with similar circumstance, will either chain the rear-end of tractor down low on some adjacent trees or go do something else.

On my L5030, I need about a 1000 pounds on the 3-point and usually use my rotary cutter also whenever possible. My BB helps some, but at a little over 500 pounds, while helpful, just isn't enough.

I usually don't back up hill or drive down hill with a fully loaded bucket as it just feels too unstable to me. I am not saying it can't be done, it just ain't going to be me doing it unless it is on a much heavier tractor with a longer wheel base and even then I would keep the bucket very low. I tend to agree with Brin's assessment.

 

[Grandad4]

If you were to chain the drawbar of the 5740 (with FEL and bush hog) to the rear of the K5 and have a pull-off, the 5740 should easily outpull the Blazer. But pulling a whole tree + stump chained to your loader going uphill backwards puts the tractor at maximum disadvantage.
1. As you pull, you shift weight off the rear wheels, where you have the greatest tractive force.
2. You are going in reverse, where the tire tread design yields less traction than the other way.
3. You are using the front axle, with no diff lock, for most of the pulling.
That sounds like a situation that had danger written all over it, so I can understand wanting to have the FEL/grapple on the downhill side of the tractor for safety. If you encounter something like that again, you might consider using a longer chain and execute the pull from the drawbar, not the 3 point - going forward - from the top of the hill. Also, separating the tree into sections and also handling the stump separately would probably mitigate some of the risk factors.

Glad it turned out OK, though.

 

[funwithahoe]

If you were to chain the drawbar of the 5740 (with FEL and bush hog) to the rear of the K5 and have a pull-off, the 5740 should easily outpull the Blazer. But pulling a whole tree + stump chained to your loader going uphill backwards puts the tractor at maximum disadvantage.
1. As you pull, you shift weight off the rear wheels, where you have the greatest tractive force.
2. You are going in reverse, where the tire tread design yields less traction than the other way.
3. You are using the front axle, with no diff lock, for most of the pulling.
That sounds like a situation that had danger written all over it, so I can understand wanting to have the FEL/grapple on the downhill side of the tractor for safety. If you encounter something like that again, you might consider using a longer chain and execute the pull from the drawbar, not the 3 point - going forward - from the top of the hill. Also, separating the tree into sections and also handling the stump separately would probably mitigate some of the risk factors.

Glad it turned out OK, though.

Don't forget that the front axle pivots so as you raise up in the air you are going to head to one side!

 

[boxygen]

Becareful what you wish for. At one of my jobsites the Superintendent brought in the pink training wheels for his daughters bike and duct taped them to the side of the Telehander Construction forklift.:laughing::laughing: It was pretty funny and we all got a good laugh watching everyone drive around the jobsite.