Tapping off Hydraulic line for thumb

/ Tapping off Hydraulic line for thumb #1  

racerboy832

Silver Member
Joined
Aug 15, 2010
Messages
229
Location
Connecticut
Tractor
Deutz Allis 5220 w FEL and Backhoe
Without getting all technical can someone tell me if this is feasible. Kelly B30 Backhoe with it's own pump. I was thinking I would T the main pressure line coming into the stock lever body. Off the T I would run hydraulic line to a wood splitter type valve and connect it to the thumb cylinder, Then return line would get taped into the return line after lever body block. There are 3/8 lines running from the pump to the backhoe valve body. I was only planning on using 1/4 for the thumb. I'm sure I could go electric but I want it all self contained. I'm sure I could add a lever to the block but I don't want to split it open.
 
/ Tapping off Hydraulic line for thumb #2  
Putting a T in the line will not work. All the hydraulic pressure will pass through the valve you are not using at any given moment and you will not have any force on the cylinder. Ex. If you are trying to operate the thumb all the oil will pass through the Hoe controlls. If you are trying to operate the hoe all the pressure will pass through the thumb controll. You need to hook a power beyond valve in series with the line from the pump to the hoe control.
 
/ Tapping off Hydraulic line for thumb
  • Thread Starter
#3  
I'm getting myself confused already. All I can tell so far. I have Power from the pump line going into the block with the 4 levers on it and then a return line back to the tank. There is a pressure gauge. I don't see any room to add another lever to the mix on the block. Where can I tap off the block for this PB thingy?
 
/ Tapping off Hydraulic line for thumb #4  
you can also use a diverter valve on one of the outriggers and select between the two. flip it one way and use the outrigger, then flip it the other and the lever for the outrigger then operates the thumb.
 
/ Tapping off Hydraulic line for thumb #5  
Where can I tap off the block for this PB thingy?
It replaces the outlet in a valve to allow you to get hydraulic pressure downstream to another valve without putting pressure on the return side of the first valve. It's usually called a power beyond plug.
What you'll end up with is two hydraulic valves plumbed in series, pressure in>1ST VALVE out>in 2ND VALVE>out to tank....Mike
 
/ Tapping off Hydraulic line for thumb #6  
If your valve has only 6 hoses, it does not have PB, or the PB outlet is not being used. . How about some pictures of the top and both sides.
 
/ Tapping off Hydraulic line for thumb #7  
I don't see any room to add another lever to the mix on the block. Where can I tap off the block for this PB thingy?

You are not going to tap into the existing valve stack to power the thumb.
It does not have Power Beyond.

That means you will have to buy a 1-spool valve with PB, and connect
it in series BEFORE the stack valve. That means pump Out goes to Thumb
valve In, and Thumb Valve PB goes to stack valve In. Thumb valve
Out (aka T) can be Teed into the stack valve Out. You will have to find
a suitable place to mount the valve.

Note: you have to get technical to do this right.
 
/ Tapping off Hydraulic line for thumb #8  
You are not going to tap into the existing valve stack to power the thumb.
It does not have Power Beyond.

That means you will have to buy a 1-spool valve with PB, and connect
it in series BEFORE the stack valve. That means pump Out goes to Thumb
valve In, and Thumb Valve PB goes to stack valve In. Thumb valve
Out (aka T) can be Teed into the stack valve Out. You will have to find
a suitable place to mount the valve.

Note: you have to get technical to do this right.

Exactly correct.
 
/ Tapping off Hydraulic line for thumb #9  
Using a single valve before main valve could cause some problems, and that being when you use all the hyd flow through the valve to control the thumb, you can not use the other functions. You could perhaps use some of the fluid for the thumb, and the rest would be available for the other valve. Is that a problem, maybe not, it would depend on how you use the machine. There are also other ways, to split the flow, with part of the flow going to the thumb, and the rest going to the main valve. This splitter valve is not cheap though, but neither is the other valve with PB. This splitter valve also has a relief set at 1500 psi, and this would prevent the thumb from over powering the bucket cyl. . Just something to think about.

You would connect the thumb circuit to the 1.5 GPM port.

https://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?item=9-4158-15&catname=hydraulic

https://www.surpluscenter.com/Instruct/I9-4158-15.pdf
 
/ Tapping off Hydraulic line for thumb #10  
Using a single valve before main valve could cause some problems, and that being when you use all the hyd flow through the valve to control the thumb, you can not use the other functions.

This is true of all the valves on most hoe attachments: the only way
to use more than one valve simultaneously is by feathering the control
levers. But usually only one valve is working at a time. This is a
limitation of a one-pump system, surely, but you don't generally see
flow dividers here.

A separate monoblock valve before the stack valves will not cause any
problems....it would be just like any other valve in the stack.
 
/ Tapping off Hydraulic line for thumb #11  
This is true of all the valves on most hoe attachments: the only way
to use more than one valve simultaneously is by feathering the control
levers. But usually only one valve is working at a time. This is a
limitation of a one-pump system, surely, but you don't generally see
flow dividers here.

A separate monoblock valve before the stack valves will not cause any
problems....it would be just like any other valve in the stack.

The main reason for difficulty to operate open center, constant flow systems, is that the control valve varies the output pump pressure, while in a constant pressure, closed center system, the control valve varies the output pump flow.....
 
/ Tapping off Hydraulic line for thumb #12  
The main reason for difficulty to operate open center, constant flow systems, is that the control valve varies the output pump pressure, while in a constant pressure, closed center system, the control valve varies the output pump flow.....

OK, but in the compact tractor world, we essentially have single-pump
open center systems. Crude, perhaps, but effective.
 
/ Tapping off Hydraulic line for thumb #13  
OK, but in the compact tractor world, we essentially have single-pump
open center systems. Crude, perhaps, but effective.
Cost effective maybe, on "hobby" applications or applications with low utilization
For sure a very "inexpensive" solution, but inefficient in competitive operation and fuel economy....
hydraulics will undergo big time challenges in the future... electric actuation-drives are already "knocking on the door....and "as fuel prizes increases, demand on more efficient hydraulic systems increases too.....here is on example on whats going on....instead of to throttle using control valves, the future is, directly pump controlled actuators, bi directional variable pumps in closed loop with the cylinder....tests has been going on for a while now...
here is an example
 
/ Tapping off Hydraulic line for thumb
  • Thread Starter
#14  
Just talked the Kelly Backhoe people. My Hoe is the B30F which is now their 851 Model. They offer a Kit for the PB for $90. Anyone out there have one already. I don't mind the $90 I just hope it isn't a couple fittings and some instructions.
 
/ Tapping off Hydraulic line for thumb #15  
/ Tapping off Hydraulic line for thumb
  • Thread Starter
#16  
I'm assuming that I'll still have to get the lever to operate the thumb. I'll try to get some pics of what I have. I was hoping that someone on here would already have one and could chime in on what it includes.
 
/ Tapping off Hydraulic line for thumb #17  
Did you ask the dealer for a PB kit, or a new spool to operate the thumb. With a stacked valved, you can add valves, and longer bolts, to do what you want. Price would be the spool section and longer bolts. Probably would not need the PB. If you can not add to your current valve, then you need an additional valve, and since your dealer said a PB kit was available, the contents of the kit needs to be known, and where to place the new valve for the thumb.
 
/ Tapping off Hydraulic line for thumb
  • Thread Starter
#18  
I called the manufacture (Kelly) Direct. I saw on a ad that the PB kit is available so figured it was worth a phone call. They are gunna send me a copy of the Manual. I asked him to Fax me the part about the PB so I could get it ordered if I wanted it. He said he was going out and could do it in the Am. Nice guy but he didn't know much about the PB kit. I don't mind the $90 if it is a clean setup. This backhoe is on a older Deutz Allis 5220. When I mention it to most people they have no idea what it is.
 
/ Tapping off Hydraulic line for thumb #19  
Can you take some close up pictures of the valve, especially the outlet side?
 
/ Tapping off Hydraulic line for thumb #20  
Cost effective maybe, on "hobby" applications or applications with low utilization...

Interesting article. Our simple hyd systems make sense on compact
tractors, but you start to explore their limits with backhoe attachments.
To quote from the CCEFP article:
æ’¤ump-controlled technology is
best for machines that have multiple
actuators that work simultaneously,
like excavators, telehandlers, timber
harvesters, wheel loaders and so on,
Williamson explained. é„*ny cylinder
could be pump controlled, but there is
little advantage over traditional systems
for actuators that work infrequently
or a single actuator by itself "

I had a long discussion with a Kubota engineer about their move to dual
HST drives for their latest mini-excavators. Electrically-controlled mult-
pump systems make a lot of sense here.

Since our simple one-pump systems are a feature of our compact
tractors (rather than a bug), we make use of several work-arounds.

One is to put restrictors in the swing circuit. Some hoes have this, mainly
to slow down the swing. But it also helps the operator use another
valve simultaneously.

Parallel switchable work circuits, like I did for my thumb, also make sense.

Operating 2 valves at once also gives you a type of "load sensing". e.g.
if you set a hoe bkt on the ground and simultaneously operate BoomUP and
DipperIn, you can rake the ground with the bkt teeth, following the ground
contour. With the thumb, you can grapple objects better than with
independent operation.
 

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