Ethanol on the Ropes?

[mmurphy]

Sorry to dowse the flames but only on paper and in a test lab, can they produce good numbers.

The MnCAR Lab is inside a climate controlled, sealed laboratory. The fuel for testing arrives in air-tight containers containing prime samples from the refineries. The fuel does not sit in tanker trucks for days while being delivered, pumped into the gas station tanks during all sorts of weather and then sit absorbing the make-up air in the tank until some poor sap fills their car.

If the study used real world samples from local stations, let them sit in non-controlled barns in the same gas containers we use, and tested the vehicles outside randomly over the course of a few days like a real car does and not on a "SuperFlow AC motor-driven chassis dynamometer" inside a sealed, moisture controlled lab, then I would actually believe the results. But then again, they can't do that because then the results wouldn't be "controlled" tests.

Most people forget that when an organization funds a study, they set the parameters for testing and decide what "Simulates" the real world and what should be ignored.

The devil is always in the details. :confused2:

The studies you listed did not test the amount of water and other gum alcohol in the fuel in accordance with the ATSM

Denatured Fuel Ethanol for Blending with Gasolines for Use as Automotive Spark-Ignition Engine Fuel; ASTM D4806 ASTM D4806 -10a Standard Specification for Denatured Fuel Ethanol for Blending with Gasolines for Use as Automotive Spark-Ignition Engine Fuel
"Fuel containing 1.0% by volume or more should not be used for spark-ignition engines."

Test Method for Existent Gum in Fuels by Jet Evaporation; ASTM D381
ASTM D381 -09 Standard Test Method for Gum Content in Fuels by Jet Evaporation
"Gasoline with a "washed gum" greater than 5 mg/ 100 mL not be used for spark-ignition engines."

In contrast, UL does list all of their testing procedures, criteria used, and results.

Compared to the requirements of ASTM D4806, most harvested samples contained gum levels that were double the limit, acidity that was double the limit, pHe that was unreasonably low, sulfate levels that were seven times the limit and moisture content that was 45% over the limit.

While some harvested samples in this limited population performed well, the overall non-compliant results indicate that high percentage ethanol fuel blends can degrade materials and result in degradation to products that may affect their ability to meet the performance requirements of UL standards. This was manifested in the harvested sample population primarily in the form of leakage from sealed joints on the equipment. Visual evidence of degradation was also noted in some cases.​

http://www.ul.com/global/documents/...tiblefluids/development/E85ResearchReport.pdf

Again, I am not against the concept of ethanol enhanced fuels, but in order to do so we need to completely change our fuel distribution infrastructure to prevent contamination that occurs in the current distribution system.

Doug

My point many times over. Who ever comes up with the study out does the other study.
Kind of reminds me of the "first lier does not stand a chance".
Just for record since you mentioned it, I started a car that has been sitting in my yard for close to 3 years to move it. No gas has been added unless some one more generous then me came along and did it, and it ran fine. It did not have problems some claim just filling up at the local station. I figured it would be a no go and was surprised my self.
When they perfect the enzymes a new revolution in ethanol will take place in efficiency. It will happen.

 

[charlz]

MTBE is a prime example of the lack of common sense that we see today. Methyl tertiary butyl ether (MTBE) was added to gas to help reduce kocking in engines when lead was phased out of gas. It's cheap and is made with natural gas and oil by products. It looked to be the perfect answer.

When the clean air act was passed mandating the use of 2% additives to add extra oxygen to gas. Since it was the only chemical that could be used at the time (easy to make and widely available) in effect congress mandated the use of MTBE. All was great until people realized that very little of it was needed to contaminate ground water.

IIRC the refineries had to add an oxygenate which more or less gave them a choice of MTBE or Ethanol and they choose MTBE as they could make it themselves and it is/was cheaper.

MTBE quickly disperses in water and gives it a bad taste. Not much is needed to ruin an entire aquifer, which has happened due to leaking storage tanks at gas stations.

 

[charlz]

I think corn in our gas tank is better than corn in our food. Particularly if HFCS->obesity links prove out.

Development and use of corn-based sweeteners was supported by the government via sugar price supports. It became economical to develop HFCS to be used in place of sugar.

Maybe if corn was used for ethanol and sugar for sweetening foods the sugar price supports wouldn't be needed and we could save some $$.

 

[mmurphy]

charlz, I like your thinking.:thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[Patches]

I don't care what corn is used for; cattle feed, corn whiskey, corn flakes, corn fritters, corny jokes, just keep it out of my fuel tank

 

[mmurphy]

I don't care what corn is used for; cattle feed, corn whiskey, corn flakes, corn fritters, corny jokes, just keep it out of my fuel tank

It is not all from corn.

 

[mohrds]

It did not have problems some claim just filling up at the local station. I figured it would be a no go and was surprised my self.

Just out of curiosity, what is your climate like? Mine is always damp and we also require "Vapor Recovery" nozzles on the gas pumps that vacuum the air surrounding the nozzle back into the underground tanks. So when it is raining, snowing or humid, it sucks all that moisture into the tank with it!

That could be the cause of 99% of our ethanol problems here!

I can't let gas sit in the tractor for more than two months or I have to drain it and put in fresh just to get it to start. The smell of the stale gas is quite distinctive.

I can't explain why your gas stays fresher than mine except perhaps for it is dryer there and maybe the moisture in the tanks isnt as bad because of no vapor recovery requirements?

 

[Loren49]

Quote:
"Higher mileage = more efficient fuel usage = more efficient burning = less emission outputs per gallon."

I like your theory but not sure its that simple: Not sure if this site will come up if copied but it shows on page 293 that Nitrous Oxide emissions in a typical 1970 diesel was 16 grams per hp/hr and in 2007 was .2 grams per hp/hr. That is an 8000% decrease. Other data for other emissions in book. You'd have to get about 1600 mile per gallon to have equal emissions per mile.

Modern Diesel Technology: Diesel Engines - Google Books

Pollution and smog and the costs and illness as a result would not be addressed by a pure free market and common sense.( IMHO) I question some of the actions taken but I know too little about it to be sure. I can say it is not black or white.

Loren

 

[Loren49]

This site shows that only 2% of US ethanol is produced from something other than corn. Also Estimated payback time for greenhouse gas emission for Brazil 17 years and for US 93 years

Ethanol fuel in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Loren

 

[mmurphy]

Just out of curiosity, what is your climate like? Mine is always damp and we also require "Vapor Recovery" nozzles on the gas pumps that vacuum the air surrounding the nozzle back into the underground tanks. So when it is raining, snowing or humid, it sucks all that moisture into the tank with it!

That could be the cause of 99% of our ethanol problems here!

I can't let gas sit in the tractor for more than two months or I have to drain it and put in fresh just to get it to start. The smell of the stale gas is quite distinctive.

I can't explain why your gas stays fresher than mine except perhaps for it is dryer there and maybe the moisture in the tanks isnt as bad because of no vapor recovery requirements?

Very humid in summer. That growing corn is a sea of moisture. I do think there is a problem if your in the eastern parts of the states that, during transportation it is drawing moisture from somewhere. Remember, the alcohol has to be dried down to almost no sign of moisture before adding to gas. Being it is basically anhydrous (meaning with out water) it will be highly absorbent to air moisture. Most people I see in any forum that is against ethanol seem to be in the eastern states. Now saying that is my own diagnosis, no study involved!:laughing: