Shock Collar for Dog training

[DennisArrow]

You might have seen this over in another tractor forum. I need some help so am posting it here also...............

We have 2 Border Collies........One is 3 and the other is barely a year old.......The 3 yo is our herding dog and is really pretty good at it for being taught by me.........The 1 yo will be good but is still to squirly........Both are totally smart and obedient and crave learning new stuff.

OK......Since we got the young one the two tend to pack up and roam........I guess the situation now is my fault, as when she was a few months old we would run her next to the RTV for the 1/2 mile drive to the barn for exercise..........After awhile the two dogs would smell something and head for parts unknown.......We live in a pretty rural/forested area with a national forest bordering on 2 sides so no one that way to complain about them running...........On the other 2 sides we taught them where the boundries are and they would not cross them or if they did they would come back totally guilty looking when the would VERY QUICKLY come back.........they know...........

Then they got into the habit of heading out when you start up the RTV and no turning back.........OR.......If one is tied up the other will not go running; but as soon as you let the one off of the chain, they give each other a look and GONE......It's the young one that is the leader of this I feel; but the older one is right in there.............Once they give each other the look, they might be 10 feet from you, and WILL NOT STOP...........They are GONE and MAY be back in an hour or so.............

Ok..........our Momma LGD, livestock guard dog, has decided that she wants to be a porch/yard dog and will not stay in a pasture.........She goes over an electric woven wire fence or over an electrified barn gate in the barn to escape the pasture........She DOES not go running with the BCs when they head out........She stays around the house....EXCEPT..........

I mentioned earlier that the BCs KNOW about the boundries to the south and west where there are neighbors maybe 100 yards away..........They would NOT go there after just a bit of harsh talking/training...........NOW THOUGH

Momma LGD thinks that the neighbor dogs are a threat and when she goes part way over towards the neighbors and barks at the dogs, the BCs think that gives them the right to go all the way over to the neighbors and cause a rucus............ONE NEIGHBOR IS TRULY COMPLAINING..........He has a fenced yard and the BCs are carrying on through the fence at his dogs......ESPECIALLY THE YOUNG ONE.............Momma dog just stands back and watches the rucus.........Another neighbor hood pack is intimidated by these dogs but the young one did get torn up a bit the other day.............

The neighbor and I get along; but I see his point so I advised him to PLEASE pop off a round in the air when MOMMA dog is around, she is terrified of gun shots. Perhaps this will teach her to not go down there............I also asked him to use a BB gun on the young BC to get her outta there........When he yells at her she just looks at him..........When I hear the carrying on I call the dogs and they come........they know better but it seems that the BCs follow the momma dog, who stubbornly refuses to check out what is going on........

Soooooo........2 problems

1. The BCs running when I dont want them to and how to get them to stop......

2. The momma LGD leading the way towards the neighbors and the BCs following and causing problems with neighbor dogs through the fence.......

Yes, I have scolded, and tried that training technique...........THEY KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING

Yes, I have chained one up........The momma dog still goes to check it out but not all the way

Yes I have kept them in the house......the momma dog still checks out the stuff

What I am wondering is how well do the shock collars work in this situation???? What if I gave the neighbor a remote to shock them in addition to one I would use to work on the running situation?...............Does just the momma dog need a collar in order to train her about the boundries???????.........Does just the young dog need a collar to teach her NOT to run?????????

YOUR advise is needed.......Thanks and God bless.......Dennis

 

[sodamo]

We use the ones with the 400 yd remote. Started using it with 1 girl who got the roams before we got fenced. Now we have it on 2 of the girls And our older male. We have found we rarely use the shock feature, but there is a negative feature. The shock is preceded by the tone, so the dogs associate. Boxers can be very focused, even hard headed. if you don't see them, and they don't respond to verbal, then we hit the button. usually see them very soon. If I have to hit it a 3rd time, it is usually remedial training and does the trick. The younger of the 2 girls is less responsive than her mom. In fact mom usually gets the non working collar
Might be worth a try in your situation if within range.

 

[tallyho8]

You have a complicated training situation that needs to be handled on multiple fronts. A shock collar is a tool just like a hammer is. Neither tool will work if used improperly.

A shock collar is not a magic tool that will end your problems the first time you push the button and using it incorrectly can easily worsen the situation.

Whenever you punish the dog (push the button) the dog must realize what he is doing wrong and that he is being disciplined for that action.

If the dog is running away from you and you push the button, many times they just learn to run faster and farther until they get out of reach of the remote control.

The training procedure for each action the dogs are doing must be handled differently and insure that the dog understands why he is being punished.

When I have more time I will try to explain one of the training methods I use which is very lengthy and will apply to only one situation.

Maybe someone will chime in with a shorter corrective measure.

 

[rockinmywaypa]

tally ho is right about making sure the dog is aware of what it's doing wrong, so many times I would see people chastising a dog after it returned home which to me was making it feel bad for coming back. be sure to catch it in the very beginning of what it's doing wrong.
As for the lgd, I did the same thing when I got lazy and started feeding him off the porch instead of walking out to the barn to feed him near the sheep. My fault and don't know the answer, sold the flock and sold him to a new flock so I hope he goes back to staying with the flock.

 

[dmccarty]

I will be interested in what TallyHo8 says.

Never had to use a shock collar but it seems if you used that shock at the wrong time the dog might get mixed signals but it does seems like it might be a good solution.

The only other thing I can think of is a electric wireless fence and collars but I do not know if that would work on your acreage. Maybe enough to "fence" off the line between you and the neighbor?

But even those are problematic. We had a dog that was very smart. The wifey kept getting home and find the dog outside the electric fence. She would check the collar and the battery would be dead so she would replace the battery. A few days later the dog would be outside the fence again due to a dead battery. Eventually she figured out that the dog would run along the fence setting off the warning tone. Once the tone was gone the dog knew she would not get shocked and she was free to go across the line.

Chase was one smart dog and a real Lady. Really miss her.

Later,
Dan

 

[brin]

We have a Brittany and he is now well trained ..thanks to a shock collar I bought off ebay for $39.00..He just would not listen at times and would ignore my command to come..we have had dogs for years and know how to reward them for following commands..anyway I put the shock collar on him and the first time I yelled COME ! he did not come and I repeated 2 more times and then I pushed the button and shocked him and he jumped almost straight up in the air and I yelled COME at the same time and Come he did...I only had to shock him about 2 more times and he got the message..be sure to yell come or whatever word you choose each time you have to shock. Only 3 or 4 times did I have to shock him..there is another button on there for vibrate..so when you push the button it gives the dog a vibration not a shock and once in awhile I will still use that but in over a year now I have not had to use either button..When I say COME ..he comes..I still keep the shock collar on him just in case..Good Luck but I swear by mine and the one I got from ebay has an antenna on it and it has a good long range..so I would not see why you would give one to the neighbor..he migh use it differently than you...As far as an electric undrground shock fence for pets ..I did not want that..what if the dog goes through with the collar on and then when he tries to come home he gets shocked again trying to get back in his yard....see what I mean..?

 

[DennisArrow]

Thanks guys and PLEASE keep thoughts coming.......I totally agree and understand about the timing of one's command. Yes, saying it when they come home merely makes them want to stay away because they just like us, hate to get their tail chewed out...........

I just have never had or used a shock collar and am not familiar at all with how they work or how much they really get the dog's attention........

I can see when we are on the porch or in the yard and the give each other "the Look" to give them a jolt as I say "STOP"........This is one of their herding commands that they KNOW to stop wherever they are and hold still...........The young one is new to the command; but knows it and the older one is totally aware of it............

Soooooo as they are running full blast at perhaps 100 feet......."STOP"......push the shocker a couple of times as I repeat the command??????

Do both dogs need the collar on?????????????? I ask this because if one is tied up or held for one reason or another the other dog DOES NOT RUN..........

I would give the neighbor a remote as the incidents are happening when I am not aware of it or never even hear it..........In addition, he is inside the fence with my dog on the outside carrying on...........Hopefully, he would use the command of "GO HOME" which they understand and they would learn to go home and not go down there..........

Again, the momma dog is leading the way but stopping short of the ruckus........the younger dog is doing all of the carrying on.........So....use the collar on momma and the young dog, with the thought of the command, "go HOME"......all of the dogs KNOW this command...........or even just "HOME"..............

My thinking is if I can stop momma dog from leading the way, even if only part of the way and stopping, that the other two will observe the boundry and she will learn from them?

thanks for the thoughts........Dennis

 

[wdchyd]

You have a complicated training situation that needs to be handled on multiple fronts. A shock collar is a tool just like a hammer is. Neither tool will work if used improperly.

A shock collar is not a magic tool that will end your problems the first time you push the button and using it incorrectly can easily worsen the situation.

Whenever you punish the dog (push the button) the dog must realize what he is doing wrong and that he is being disciplined for that action.

If the dog is running away from you and you push the button, many times they just learn to run faster and farther until they get out of reach of the remote control.

The training procedure for each action the dogs are doing must be handled differently and insure that the dog understands why he is being punished.

When I have more time I will try to explain one of the training methods I use which is very lengthy and will apply to only one situation.

Maybe someone will chime in with a shorter corrective measure.

:thumbsup:.....my two hunting dogs respond differently....

I use the tone first to give them the warning ......

my older female knows what the shock means and comes running to my feet but the 1 1/2 yr old male will run away further, unfortunately he was supposedly pre trained with the shock collar as he was about 8 months old when we got him.........needless to say I won't use the shock on him....doesn't work....

The only time I'm using the remotes are out in the woods and sometimes they could be as much as a mile or more away (using GPS Telemetry), so using them in my situation is very important to rein them in at nightfall or running "Off Game".......

The tone does not work when they are on a trail of a rabbit............YouTube - Christmas Pass 2010.wmv

 

[wdchyd]

Do both dogs need the collar on?????????????? I ask this because if one is tied up or held for one reason or another the other dog DOES NOT RUN..........



thanks for the thoughts........Dennis

These E collars have different channels for each dog....they also have different functions/intensity levels for shock......

The ones I have give me the choice of tone (or vibration) and shock....for each dog......Cabela's: SportDOG Brandｮ WetlandHunterｮ SD-1825 Transmitter/Collar

The brand I have is Sportdog but there is an endless sea of brands and models to chose from.....if I had to do it over I'd get a "Tritronics" brand as they have a good following of users....and most users are happy with them.....

The Sportdog has given me problems, but they do give a 2 yr warranty and have replaced defective units gracefully......my hounds are very rough on the collars (water/mud/rocks/ice ect)...

If you do buy a set go to a good store that has good selections to compare....Cabela's has a good 90 day exchange/return policy if you are not satified you can return them........

 

[LMTC]

I've used a shock collar to train several dogs, but not our Border Collie. I wouldn't even consider it for a BC. For starters, they learn incredibly quickly....and part of what it sounds like you need is for them to UNlearn something they've been allowed to learn. Secondly, the half dozen BCs I've dealt with are so incredibly sensitive that I would be concerned a shock collar would be more than corrective....it would be devastating. Just my $.02 worth. Not at all opposed to the shock collar as a tool, but really do not think it's a good one for that breed. I can correct our 4 year old BC with a click of my tongue or anything to get her attention...when she looks at me she KNOWS if I am giving approval or disapproval. Scary sometimes how smart they are....same with sensitivity. I once whacked myself accidentally and yelled rather loudly....she was in the same room and went to her "place of punishment" immediately. When I realized what had happened I called her to me and made it clear she was not being punished.