Starter keeps cranking ???

[Richard]

As per another thread, I replaced my solenoid on my starter yesterday.

I'm a little confused. If you will pardon any butchering of words, here's what I've got.

The solenoid has three terminals. Two heavy lugs and one "trigger" tab. Unless I went dumb in the meantime, when I took the old one off I had a heavy copper strap from one lug of the solenoid to the base of the starter itself. I presume this is the heavy current to actually crank the motor.

The other lug had the heavy wire from the battery and a cluster of maybe three other wires bundled together.

The last attachment point is the little 'trigger' tab that for lack of better word, is the lead to the key that starts the whole process.

Oh, and the very bottom of the starter has another couple of wires bundled to it as well. Perhaps just a grounding point for them, I don't know.

All I did was take the old solenoid out, put the new one back.

I went to crank it and let go of the key. The engine kept cranking & cranking & cranking as though Casper the Ghost was still holding the key.

Fortunately, I have a blade style quick disconnect to my negative post (to kill any chances of battery drain during weeks or months of non-use) and I was able to lift the blade to kill the starter.

Tried it again and same thing....just kept cranking away.

huh?

I'll admit I'm dumfounded on this. I got the machine started, and lifted the disconnect. With the noise of the engine starting, I don't really know if the starter disengaged on its own or if the breaking of the circuit by me did it. Everything works fine once started.

It was getting dark so I drove the machine out of my father in laws lawn and brought it home and parked it.

I'll probably get back to it this weekend.

What might cause the starter to STAY in starter mode?

Here's one thought I had. As I recall, when the solenoid is energized it pushes (or pulls?) a lever and this moves the bendix gear inside the starter. This process ALSO connects some contacts to deliver the heavy current to actually engage the starter itself.

The plunger on the solenoid fits into a slot on the starter side. If perchance, this didn't fit properly and therefore, created a "larger" length plunger, could this phantom extension be keeping these contacts touching each other until I lift the negative lead on the battery??

 

[Treemonkey1000]

Did the solenoid go back on without binding? Just wondering if putting it back in maybe it got distorted a little making the contacts stay energized. And before everyone else mentions pictures do help.

 

[Argosy]

Was there a spring inside the solenoid to return the plunger. Did you put that back in?

 

[ihuntbear]

i think you put one wire on the wrong post.sounds like you put the run wire on the start and the start on the run.It shouldn't keep cranking because of any spring.just my .02 cents

 

[J_J]

Check your key switch and see if there is voltage when you release start.

Try the screwdriver trick acrtoss the terminals.

The arm that shifts the Bendix may be binding.

Do you have the starter lug and the batt supply lugs reversed?

You might have created a latch on relay situation. It works like this. Once the relay is energised, it may grab a voltage to keep it energised until the current is broken.

 

[Craig Clayton]

If it is not a huge job why not pull the starter at this point in time and have a look around. You will probably find that the bandix throw is alot dirtier than you think. This also lets you check the action on the bench and then the wiring should be sorted or confirmed.
Craig Clayton

 

[jonyyuma]

Check your key switch and see if there is voltage when you release start.

Try the screwdriver trick acrtoss the terminals.

The arm that shifts the Bendix may be binding.

Do you have the starter lug and the batt supply lugs reversed?

You might have created a latch on relay situation. It works like this. Once the relay is energised, it may grab a voltage to keep it energised until the current is broken.

Good advice, look for some throw that is mech. holding the plunger too.

 

[mlauk]

The contact points in the solenoid might have welded together, due to low voltage. Is this a 24 volt system?

 

[Richard]

Did the solenoid go back on without binding? Just wondering if putting it back in maybe it got distorted a little making the contacts stay energized. And before everyone else mentions pictures do help.

Yes, I agree with the pictures. Was getting dark and I had to go last night. I plan to get some.

 

[Richard]

Was there a spring inside the solenoid to return the plunger. Did you put that back in?

Yes/yes

 

[Richard]

i think you put one wire on the wrong post.sounds like you put the run wire on the start and the start on the run.It shouldn't keep cranking because of any spring.just my .02 cents

Well, I thought the same thing.... so I reversed the wires (I left the solenoid unchanged though)

I moved the "bundle" of wires to the strapped post and left JUST the battery wire on the main post (where I know it was to begin with)

All of this would be fine presuming the solenoid wasn't meant to be rotated 180 degrees. She said it was the same thing so I'm forced to believe that it would have the same orientation as the original.

That said, I did the swap. I don't remember if it was totally dead or kept cranking. I only tried it once and ended up putting them back. I THINK I had no response out of the unit.

 

[Richard]

If it is not a huge job why not pull the starter at this point in time and have a look around. You will probably find that the bandix throw is alot dirtier than you think. This also lets you check the action on the bench and then the wiring should be sorted or confirmed.
Craig Clayton

Now that I can start the machine I could probably get the starter out (with some hassel)

With the machine as it was, I had the loader arms in my way creating a very difficult/awkward situation. The starter is down low, you are working through the arms of the loader. There are some cables (throttle), hoses (coolant) fuel filter, throttle "mount" (not sure what it's called) and some other things that get in the way of "simply" taking it out.

The loader arms are one BIG issue though so with the ability to now at least start the machine and move it to a hill where I can rest the loader in a raised position, it might be easier to remove.

You don't want to know the various phrases that were going through my mind when I was trying to get this booger out! :ashamed:

I was originally going to simply remove it, take it to the service shop and let them have at it. After wrestling around with it for a couple hours, I said the heck with that and removed the solenoid in about 20 minutes.

 

[Richard]

The contact points in the solenoid might have welded together, due to low voltage. Is this a 24 volt system?

Nope, 12 volt (although I don't know if that would change your thought)

I might add, this machine started & worked just fine prior to this so although I can see how contacts might 'weld' together, I find it rather suspect that they just happened to weld together the very first time I put the new solenoid back on

Brother in law (electrician) said he thinks a strand of wire might have gone wayward on me and might be keeping some current going to the energizer circuit. I don't think so, but.... I'll be checking this stuff this weekend.

 

[Richard]

Did the solenoid go back on without binding? Just wondering if putting it back in maybe it got distorted a little making the contacts stay energized. And before everyone else mentions pictures do help.

I meant to add...

Although it went back together pretty easy, I did have to fiddle around with it so the "foot" of the piston would seat correctly.

It's crossed my mind that with the springs in there, maybe it didn't seat correctly, therefore keeping it more "extended" and perhaps that is keeping the start circuit engaged?

(I'm reaching for straws on that one since I have no idea if the premise is even correct)

I'm convinced enough that there are no stray wires anywhere and that the wires are on the correct post that frankly, I'm already thinking the first thing I might do is simply loosen the solenoid and try to reseat it.

 

[BeeferMan]

I'd bet you wired it wrong, some how got the starter side post and the solenoid activation post connected - so when it starts, the juice from the start side is keeping the solenoid activation hot... Not sure how you'd do that, but that's what the symptoms sound like - no start until activated, then it stays activated until you remove all power...

 

[Richard]

That describes the symptoms exactly...but.... lets boil this down.

I have three attachment points, well FOUR if we count the one that I think is a ground on the end of the starter.

That one is not in much question since the wires are so long, they can't go anywhere else lest I have 6" of slack.

So, now we have three attachment points. One is the little 'trigger' tab that sticks out of the solenoid. Only one item can attach to that and it's on there correctly.

Now, we have two attachment points, BOTH are large current type things. One is on the bottom of the solenoid and it has a copper strap attaching it to the starter. I know this part is in place.

The other attachment point has the hot lead from the battery coming down to it....I know THIS is in the right place.

So, this leaves me with one bundle of wires that I "knew" were attached to the battery cable terminal (on the solenoid) but... realized maybe I screwed up. I moved them to the other lead and had no more progress. (I admit I don't recall if it kept cranking or....if memory does serve me, it was dead in the water with ZERO cranking)

so as best I can tell, I've got things in their right places and the only wire that COULD have been elsewhere....has been tried there.

Good thing I'm not a rocket scientist

 

[6thgpSF]

the same thing happened to me once,the starter kept on cranking so I shut it off and gave the solenoid a couple of good raps with my vicegrips and that sloved the problem.don't know what I did but haven't had the problem since. russ

 

[TraderMark]

Richard,
What brand of starter is it? Just guessing from what you've said, I'm thinking it's probably a Delco. Could be a Bosch or several other models though.
Make and model of the machine would also help.

There are several things in general that can keep the starter engaged.

1) errant electrical current to the solenoid activation terminal
2) binding of the solenoid plunger once the solenoid is activated
3) binding of the starter drive on the armature so the drive isn't returning as it should
4) low voltage to the solenoid. Not necessarily low battery voltage.

A little more info may help us help you.

Mark

 

[Richard]

Richard,
What brand of starter is it? Just guessing from what you've said, I'm thinking it's probably a Delco. Could be a Bosch or several other models though.
Make and model of the machine would also help.

There are several things in general that can keep the starter engaged.

1) errant electrical current to the solenoid activation terminal
2) binding of the solenoid plunger once the solenoid is activated
3) binding of the starter drive on the armature so the drive isn't returning as it should
4) low voltage to the solenoid. Not necessarily low battery voltage.

A little more info may help us help you.

Mark

I have NO idea of brand. I went to a local fix it place, the oily/greasy smelling alternater/generator/starter rebuilder kind of place. I took them the starter 5-7 years ago and had it "rebuilt" (probably just needed a new solenoid). The machine is a JCB industrial backhoe/loader (1550B with a 4 cyl turbo Perkins). It's located at my home so it does NOT get industrial type use. Indeed, it might be weeks or months (over winter) between uses.

Your item number 2 is the first one that came to me and the one that keeps sticking in my head.

 

[jimmysisson]

Richard, I'm with you on #2, since really it's the only thing you changed, and you said it was hard manouvering in the starter area. Now you're off the lawn, you can maybe get the starter out, see what's binding with the solenoid, and bench test it. A tiny bit of lube on the drive won't hurt either.
Jim