KIOTI DK 45 SE HST Stopped while running - won't re-start

[dourobob]

Well, the tractor is back and, so far, working well.

I just spent an hour or so cleaning up a bunch of snow after the storm last week - my neighbour blew out the driveway and yard last Wednesday while my tracor was still in the shop so I got to do the barn/shop area, some walking trails and a bit of the tidying up today)

The complete wiring harness was replaced - under warranty.

Tom, the dealer, says that 5 wires were burnt through.

A small glitch as the harness was on back order and the replacement was delayed by about 4 days. Tom is pressing KIOTI for some assistance with float charges because of this delay.

For now, I guess I have to use it more just to be sure if this does happen again it is still under warranty.

Bob

 

[grsthegreat]

Well, the tractor is back and, so far, working well.

I just spent an hour or so cleaning up a bunch of snow after the storm last week - my neighbour blew out the driveway and yard last Wednesday while my tracor was still in the shop so I got to do the barn/shop area, some walking trails and a bit of the tidying up today)

The complete wiring harness was replaced - under warranty.

Tom, the dealer, says that 5 wires were burnt through.

A small glitch as the harness was on back order and the replacement was delayed by about 4 days. Tom is pressing KIOTI for some assistance with float charges because of this delay.

For now, I guess I have to use it more just to be sure if this does happen again it is still under warranty.

Bob

i sure hope that this fixes it for you once and for all. did the dealer say why or where the damage happened??

 

[dourobob]

i sure hope that this fixes it for you once and for all. did the dealer say why or where the damage happened??

I will get more specific details, but he did say that the harness was rubbing on the block and had rubbed through on five wires.

He had heard earlier (perhaps at a dealer meeting, I don't remember) that the wiring harness on some KIOTIs was problematic as the manufacturing specs were calling for as little material as possible in order to reduce costs.

I think, in this instance, it is a false saving as the warranty cost for replacing the entire wiring harness has to be much greater than the few more cents it would cost to add a couple of inches of wire and reduce the tension on the harness.

Bob

 

[Coyote machine]

I will get more specific details, but he did say that the harness was rubbing on the block and had rubbed through on five wires.

He had heard earlier (perhaps at a dealer meeting, I don't remember) that the wiring harness on some KIOTIs was problematic as the manufacturing specs were calling for as little material as possible in order to reduce costs.

I think, in this instance, it is a false saving* as the warranty cost for replacing the entire wiring harness has to be much greater than the few more cents it would cost to add a couple of inches of wire and reduce the tension on the harness.

Bob

Hey Bob, Tell that* to GM re their cost cutting measures of gas tanks under the driver's door on their pickups.:confused2:

I too noticed when removing the 'display unit', combo relay/timer from the firewall that there was no wiggle room on the harness. I suspect your harness may have been chewed on by rodents prior to your receiving the tractor, or too tight a harness may have caused chafing, which resulted in shorts and thus burned wires.
Unfortunately in today's competitive and broken down economy most companies cut costs where the savings may be justified on the accountant's spreadsheet; and we as consumers pay for it in aggravation, wasted time, etc. Imagine for a second if the harness had caught fire and burned up the tractor and where ever you store it?! (That was a real concern I expressed earlier in this thread). Warranty- fine. I'd prefer things to work out of the box and for the warranty to cover those unexpected issues, not issues that we as consumers have to deal with just because someone thought of a way to make something that needs to work cheaper, INSTEAD of better. Don't want to rant so I'll sign off for now.

Glad they took care of it for you. :thumbsup:

? What's 'float' ?

And are they going to cover the transportation to the dealer?

 

[dourobob]

Hey Bob . . . we as consumers pay for it in aggravation, wasted time, etc. Imagine for a second if the harness had caught fire and burned up the tractor and where ever you store it?! (That was a real concern I expressed earlier in this thread). Warranty- fine. I'd prefer things to work out of the box and for the warranty to cover those unexpected issues, not issues that we as consumers have to deal with just because someone thought of a way to make something that needs to work cheaper, INSTEAD of better. Don't want to rant so I'll sign off for now.

Glad they took care of it for you. :thumbsup:

? What's 'float' ?

And are they going to cover the transportation to the dealer?

I agree wholeheartedly. Your comment earlier was one that prompted me to have this fixed right at the dealers shop. Thanks for that push.

"Float charges" is a local reference to transportation costs or trucking fees. It is the phrase the dealer used so I did too.

We shall see what happens on this front.

Bob

 

[Coyote machine]

You're welcome Bob.
What I wonder about is if they just replaced the harness with the identical one then what is to keep the problem from reoccurring? I'd want assurance from your dealer or the zone rep for Kioti that whatever was done is different than what was done at the factory; superseded harness number, modified design, etc. Unfortunately, if there are no changes then I'd want to know exactly what and where to look for signs of the problem before it happens again.
Maybe they can tell you what caused the burnt wires, harness chafing, rodents chewing, or something else. and if they share that info maybe they can tell you where exactly the wires were burnt and how to inspect them for signs of future damage.
AND IMHO you should not have to pay for any transportation charges!:thumbsup:

 

[JonKioti]

"we as consumers pay for it in aggravation, wasted time, etc...."

It's a valid comment, but perhaps you might consider "We, as consumers, sometimes resent it when the odds of a failure due to cost cutting turn against us."

We do expect our machines to work with little problem, especially when they are new. It can be discouraging when this doesn't happen, but consider it like this:

Every manufacturer of non-luxury goods is in a race to produce their product for the lowest cost. Reputation, appearance and features are good selling points, but just about every post from anyone looking to buy a tractor is about weighing up the cost.

We all know it is unlikely any manufacturer would allow a design to proceed knowing the chances of failure were higher, as they would be paying 20 times the amount saved with warranty coverage after the fact.

In this case, it sounds like a faulty cable harness or perhaps the factory installation did not clip the cable correctly. A small wire clip could break; with any luck Bob's dealer ensured there was less strain on that part, or added a wire tie.

I am sure tractors could be manufactured to result in zero defects for five years or more, but the extra manufacturing costs would likely add several thousand dollars to each unit, resulting in the inevitable "I like the Kioti, but they are just too expensive" line. Hence, many if not all manufacturers play the balancing game, hoping to balance cost with a reasonable reliability rate.

I look at my tractor and imagine trying to get someone to build me one, and I know I have already saved a lot of money, making any downtime to correct a warranty issue quite tolerable. I am sure a tractor with all the features and reliability of my Kioti would have cost quite a bit more 20 years ago.

The only thing we need to be is patient with our dealers, who more often than not, try to keep us happy. Reading through this entire thread, I have to congratulate Bob for his upbeat and positive attitude.

Enjoy your DK45 Bob; glad to hear it's all fixed. You値l have to visit Newfoundland sometime.

Jon

 

[Coyote machine]

"we as consumers pay for it in aggravation, wasted time, etc...."

It's a valid comment, but perhaps you might consider "We, as consumers, sometimes resent it when the odds of a failure due to cost cutting turn against us." I don't see how what you're saying is any different than what I said?!

We do expect our machines to work with little problem, especially when they are new. It can be discouraging when this doesn't happen, but consider it like this:

Every manufacturer of non-luxury goods is in a race to produce their product for the lowest cost. Reputation, appearance and features are good selling points, but just about every post from anyone looking to buy a tractor is about weighing up the cost. So What is your point?

We all know it is unlikely any manufacturer would allow a design to proceed knowing the chances of failure were higher, as they would be paying 20 times the amount saved with warranty coverage after the fact. Only on the claims that were presented and granted warranty status during the warranty period; they COUNT on those being less than their savings from cost cutting- otherwise the cutting would not pan out, and the warranty period would be forever. Ever heard of PLANNED obsolescence?

In this case, it sounds like a faulty cable harness or perhaps the factory installation did not clip the cable correctly. A small wire clip could break; with any luck Bob's dealer ensured there was less strain on that part, or added a wire tie.

I am sure tractors could be manufactured to result in zero defects for five years or more, but the extra manufacturing costs would likely add several thousand dollars to each unit, resulting in the inevitable "I like the Kioti, but they are just too expensive" line. Hence, many if not all manufacturers play the balancing game, hoping to balance cost with a reasonable reliability rate.

I look at my tractor and imagine trying to get someone to build me one, and I know I have already saved a lot of money,(where/how have you saved a lot of money?), making any downtime to correct a warranty issue quite tolerable. For you perhaps, but any time without an expensive piece of machinery waiting on repairs/parts due to some company's cost cutting measures is NOT a tolerable situation; I for one paid for my machine to work, not sit at the dealer's being fixed due to poor design. I am sure a tractor with all the features and reliability of my Kioti would have cost quite a bit more 20 years ago. More $ 20 years ago?!

The only thing we need to be is patient with our dealers, who more often than not, try to keep us happy. Evidently your prerogative, but certainly not something we need to do. Reading through this entire thread, I have to congratulate Bob for his upbeat and positive attitude.

Enjoy your DK45 Bob; glad to hear it's all fixed. You値l have to visit Newfoundland sometime.

Jon

My comments in reply to your reply are in red, set into your text...

 

[kattywumpus]

I will get more specific details, but he did say that the harness was rubbing on the block and had rubbed through on five wires.

He had heard earlier (perhaps at a dealer meeting, I don't remember) that the wiring harness on some KIOTIs was problematic as the manufacturing specs were calling for as little material as possible in order to reduce costs.

I think, in this instance, it is a false saving as the warranty cost for replacing the entire wiring harness has to be much greater than the few more cents it would cost to add a couple of inches of wire and reduce the tension on the harness.

Bob

I agree with the "false saving" statement. There's a reason Honda and Toyota sales increased over the years while the American car companies sales decreased, in my opinion it wasn't because Honda and Toyota vehicles were less expensive it was because of quality. Marketing can only compensate so much for poor quality. The fact that both of us had electrical and hydraulics noise problems with our new tractors tells me Kioti has some quality issue. Thankfully the tractor does have a good warranty and most dealers work hard to correct the issues. As a customer I would prefer not to be the beta tester of some numb executive's idea. I get a little tired of all the excuses. I know better, a good quality control program can prevent a lot of these issues before the customer have to deal with them!!!!! No excuses.

Sorry Bob, if I'm drifting to the negative side a little. In my 20’s I worked in quality control for 3 large companies. I experienced so many examples of were quality was abandon in attempt to meet short term production and financial goals. In the end the company always ended up paying dearly for this. I bet an engineer or quality control person pointed these possible issues but was over ruled by an executive or manager looking for short-term gains.

 

[dourobob]

... What I wonder about is if they just replaced the harness with the identical one then what is to keep the problem from reoccurring? . . . if they share that info maybe they can tell you where exactly the wires were burnt and how to inspect them for signs of future damage.
AND IMHO you should not have to pay for any transportation charges!:thumbsup:

I am planning on a detailed de-briefing with my dealer and his mechanic team for just that reason - I want to know what is different now.
Will let you know what happens on the trucking charges.

"we as consumers pay for it in aggravation, wasted time, etc...."

In this case, it sounds like a faulty cable harness or perhaps the factory installation did not clip the cable correctly. A small wire clip could break; with any luck Bob's dealer ensured there was less strain on that part, or added a wire tie.

The only thing we need to be is patient with our dealers, who more often than not, try to keep us happy. Reading through this entire thread, I have to congratulate Bob for his upbeat and positive attitude.

Enjoy your DK45 Bob; glad to hear it's all fixed. You'll have to visit Newfoundland sometime.
Jon

Thanks for your comments Jon
I realize it is all about balance for the manufacturer and if they can't make a profit, they can't stay in business. I know my dealer doesn't get up in the morning thinking how can he make my like miserable. He is being reasonable, helpful and cooperative and that will get both of us a lot further than a confrontational approach.
Do I want it to work right out of the box?? Of course.
Did it happen? No.
Stuff happens and I try to learn from it and not to get dragged down by it.

If I get to the "ROCK" I will make a point of looking you up Jon. I have been SCREECHed in and I've kissed the Cod so manybe we could just have a beer:thumbsup:

I agree with the "false saving" statement. . . . The fact that both of us had electrical and hydraulics noise problems with our new tractors tells me Kioti has some quality issue. Thankfully the tractor does have a good warranty and most dealers work hard to correct the issues. As a customer I would prefer not to be the beta tester of some numb executive's idea. I get a little tired of all the excuses.

Sorry Bob, if I'm drifting to the negative side a little. In my 20s I worked in quality control for 3 large companies. I experienced so many examples of were quality was abandon in attempt to meet short term production and financial goals. . . . I bet an engineer or quality control person pointed these possible issues but was over ruled by an executive or manager looking for short-term gains.

I can't disagree with anything you have said and I know my dealer watches this board when he has a chance.

I have given him the link to this whole discussion and asked him to pass it on to the KIOTI rep he deals with - I hope the KIOTI folks watch here as well for what they can learn about their customers and their quality issues.

Concerns about Quality Control should (IMHO) never go away - new designs, new models, new workers all have an impact. If the process was perfect there would surely be no need for warranties but, because it isn't, I am glad to have the support of my dealer in resolving any issues that arise.

More to come as the story unfolds.

Bob