MIG welding....push or pull

[SixHoeBob]

If body parts are at risk, 6011 root pass, 7018 finish passes. Say you were building something like a bridge....

 

[wroughtn_harv]

Like most I push and pull just working the puddle. HOWEVER, I would never encourage a newbie to pull mig. I've always been told that with gas you push and without you pull.

I have rewelded way too many pretty mig welds over the years that were cold joints. Every one of them was a drag weld.

So if you are a newbie push gas mig.

One of the things I tell newbies is to not worry about the appearance of a weld as much as you worry about the weld. If you make a good weld then it will look good, just the way it is.

 

[JC-jetro]

I kind of push and pull as I weld toward myself. Filling a fillet I go side to side and bring the puddle down. Pushing and I think I have to to watch more not to burn myself

JC,

 

[Dargo]

I have welded for well over 30 years. I go both ways. No, not that!!! It depends on the situation. I just welded a hydraulic thumb on a guy's JD 790 excavator last weekend so he could load a bunch of huge boulders and yank stumps out easier. Since I didn't have any rods (okay, for you picky people, electrodes) I wanted, I just used my MM251 with 35 wire and cranked it up. The backing plate was 1" tool steel and he is an animal with his machine. The weld obviously was strong enough because he did everything he could to tear the thumb off and nearly turned his machine over several times and nothing even remotely moved.

Being that I had to weld at nearly every angle to get it welded on, I mostly pushed the puddle, but I also dragged when needed. I ran 2 really hot and deep passes for what would have held but went ahead and ran my machine as hard as it would go making 'pretty' U passes over the welds to make it look like one heavy caulk weld from a factory. As someone before said, I've seen many "pretty" welds fail because they were far too cold. When I was blowing through some spots at times in his 3/8" plate on his dipper stick, I was pretty comfortable I was getting good penetration.

I'm easy, after all these years, I'm not gonna argue with anyone. I do take pride in nice looking welds, but my main priority is to make d*** sure the welds are solid. I can say that I really don't think I can recall having any of my welds fail. It's always been someplace else that's broken when I have to fix something again. I kinda take a little pride in that too. Just don't talk to me about welding really thin aluminum. I see absolutely no practical reason to weld a pop can back together after it's been cut in half!

 

[crazyal]

When I was blowing through some spots at times in his 3/8" plate on his dipper stick, I was pretty comfortable I was getting good penetration.

Maybe that's why I'm less concerned about pushing or pulling too. My Lincoln 255 has no problem putting the heat to the steel when needed. There's no doubt in your mind when you see cherry red metal.

 

[Chain Bender]

Maybe that's why I'm less concerned about pushing or pulling too. My Lincoln 255 has no problem putting the heat to the steel when needed. There's no doubt in your mind when you see cherry red metal.

XXXXXXXXXXXXX

That seems to be a problem with my welder/welding. My Handler 140 is 120V and is plugged in to a 30 amp dedicated line that only runs about 3 feet from the breaker box. Using 10ga wire from breaker box to plug box. I can go with a heavier guage in about 5 minutes.

1/4" to 1/4" welds.

With welder on highest/hottest setting and wire feed on 50 +/- with .030 or .035 solid wire I cannot get the puddle to puddle like with a medium/warm 6011 stick. My welds basically look like catalpa worms. If I make quick u's then I get absolutely no penetration. If I get a little penetration I get what looks like a dirt-dobber nest. I've run both polarities without good results. Argon is turned up to as high as 50.

Any suggestions

Chain Bender

 

[Shield Arc]

Argon is turned up to as high as 50.
Any suggestions

Yeah, turn that gas back down to 20 CFH! You don't have a lot of options with that welder, but you could try a different gas, 100% Co2 will give you a little more horse power.

 

[Chilly807]

XXXXXXXXXXXXX

That seems to be a problem with my welder/welding. My Handler 140 is 120V and is plugged in to a 30 amp dedicated line that only runs about 3 feet from the breaker box. Using 10ga wire from breaker box to plug box. I can go with a heavier guage in about 5 minutes.

1/4" to 1/4" welds.

With welder on highest/hottest setting and wire feed on 50 +/- with .030 or .035 solid wire I cannot get the puddle to puddle like with a medium/warm 6011 stick. My welds basically look like catalpa worms. If I make quick u's then I get absolutely no penetration. If I get a little penetration I get what looks like a dirt-dobber nest. I've run both polarities without good results. Argon is turned up to as high as 50.

Any suggestions

Chain Bender

You can try slowing down your travel speed, that's a stab in the dark since I've never seen you weld. The smaller welders take a little more time to put heat into the metal. My 135 Miller would turn 1/4 plate cherry red, but it was slower going.

It took me a long time to finally realize I had to slow down my travel speed, not just with the 135, but with any welder. My results are better, but I still tend to string the weld out occasionally.

Learning to watch the puddle is the single biggest hurdle to any self-taught welder, at least in my opinion. The next one is learning how to manipulate it to get the weld you want.

When I first started, I knew nothing about watching the weld puddle, I just drew the mig gun along at what I thought was "the right speed". Good welds were purely accidental in those days. The strange thing was, I don't remember anything I ever welded breaking, except maybe a couple of lengths of chain I cobbled together to get a longer piece.

Sean

 

[Turbys_1700]

Just a suggestion...

Take it for what it's worth...

For a very reasonable cost, you can enroll in your local community college and take welding classes...

That is, if you live within a reasonable driving distance to the school and they offer
welding...

I have worked at the local community college for 17 years and welding has been offered most of the 51 years the school has been in existence...

Classes are offered in the evenings after work...

Just a thought...

 

[Chain Bender]

There is a vocational/technical school about 25 miles up the road. Pretty sure their night classes run up over $1200 for a class.

Usually I run the 75/25 argon at 30. I only mentoned I had run it up as high as 50 to see if that would help. It didn't. I have run it to almost completely off as well without change.


I've tried slowing down but get even a bigger dirt dobber weld. I've turned teh ehat up and the wire feed down and just cannot get a puddle up, except on a really long weld (16") that finally at the end few inches the weld puddled out and "thinned out" like a stick weld would.

Might rewire from the breaker to the plug today with some 8 and maybe rewire the cord on the machine itself.

Probably won't et any chance to test it for several weeks. Having a left knee TKR Monday morning and have many things to get put up and stored before church time tomorrow.

Gentlemen, thans for all the input and free schooling. I do appreciate it and will do my best to apply as much of it as I can when I can.

If I dont reply back in a few weeks it will be becaus i cannot sit at the computer table.

much thanks,
Lee

 

[Reg]

Just know that if you "borrow" CO2 tanks from behind the restaurant they will be 100% CO2, NOT 25/75 (-:

 

[Transit]

XXXXXXXXXXXXX

That seems to be a problem with my welder/welding. My Handler 140 is 120V and is plugged in to a 30 amp dedicated line that only runs about 3 feet from the breaker box. Using 10ga wire from breaker box to plug box. I can go with a heavier guage in about 5 minutes.

1/4" to 1/4" welds.

With welder on highest/hottest setting and wire feed on 50 +/- with .030 or .035 solid wire I cannot get the puddle to puddle like with a medium/warm 6011 stick. My welds basically look like catalpa worms. If I make quick u's then I get absolutely no penetration. If I get a little penetration I get what looks like a dirt-dobber nest. I've run both polarities without good results. Argon is turned up to as high as 50.

Any suggestions

Chain Bender

Bender, I am having problems understanding your statements. I don't know if you are using the wrong terminology or your setup is all wrong.

The 10 ga wire and 30 amp breaker is a good start.

You should practice on 1/8 to 3/16 inch stock. Too thin and you will easily burn holes and too thick you will not have the heat needed.

You say ARGON gas, I hope not. You should be using C-25, a mix of CO2 and Argon.
You should have two gas gauges on the tank, one that indicates the gas pressure in the tank [psi] and one that indicates the gas flow rate in cubic feet per hour [cu/h]. The first gas valve should be FULLY opened, the second valve on the regulator controls the rate of flow. The gas flow should be set to 15 to 20 cuf/h. too little gas and the weld is not shielded, too much gas will cause turbulence to draw air into weld arc.

With the wire feed turned to its lowest or the pressure roll open, you should hear the gas valve open and gas flow through to the gun defuser. If not correct.

Set the heat and wire speed to the recommended value for the stock. You can fine tune the arc with the wire speed control.

The wire stick out should be about 1/2 inch at an angle of 30 deg to the work.

You want to move the gun to keep the force of the arc at the leading edge of the puddle. To fast and you will not build heat for a puddle, to slow and you will over weld the weld puddle and not fuse the puddle into the base.

 

[Shield Arc]

I've tried slowing down but get even a bigger dirt dobber weld. I've turned teh ehat up and the wire feed down and just cannot get a puddle up, except on a really long weld (16") that finally at the end few inches the weld puddled out and "thinned out" like a stick weld would.

There is more than one way to skin a cat. You could try a little pre-heat with a torch. Pre-heat the weld zone for the first 1/3 rd or 1/2 of the length of the weld zone.

 

[grsthegreat]

i have always been told that a 120 volt MIG welder cannot weld 1/4" plate.....my 120 welder handbook states 1/8" max.

i do alot of 1/4" + welding, but use my stick welder (7018 with reverse dc) to get good penetration on heaver stock

 

[grsthegreat]

Might rewire from the breaker to the plug today with some 8 and maybe rewire the cord on the machine itself.

Probably won't et any chance to test it for several weeks. Having a left knee TKR Monday morning and have many things to get put up and stored before church time tomorrow.

Gentlemen, thans for all the input and free schooling. I do appreciate it and will do my best to apply as much of it as I can when I can.

If I dont reply back in a few weeks it will be becaus i cannot sit at the computer table.

much thanks,
Lee

increasing the wire size wont do a thing. its a 120 volt machine, and if the wire size or breaker were insufficient, the breaker would have tripped. Even if you installed #4 wire, the results would be the same.

I honestly feel that you need a good 240 volt MIG welder to do 1/4" plate. I see what my friends 240 welder can do to 1/4 & 3/8" plate, and theres NO WAY my 110v MIG can do that. Unfair to ask it to do something it WASN'T designed to do. By the way, I'm an electrical contractor, and while its OK to up-size the wire to an outlet, its not considered good form to up-size the breaker too much. 200% increase wouldn't hurt, but if there ever is a problem with the machine, there will be NO PROTECTION established with the breaker panel.

 

[IslandTractor]

I too am a novice welder in the middle of an intro MIG class at the local technical high school adult education program. I've had similar problems trying to weld on 1/4 inch with 110V but no problems with 220V. I wonder if the issue here is that 1/4 inch is at the limit of what a 110v welder can handle so it requires a bit more skill and experience to make it work while the 220V setup has plenty of power to overcome the lack of finesse. I know that 110 welders can manage 1/4 but it does seem to be at the outside limit of practical power despite what the manufacturers claim.

 

[Transit]

i have always been told that a 120 volt MIG welder cannot weld 1/4" plate.....my 120 welder handbook states 1/8" max.

i do alot of 1/4" + welding, but use my stick welder (7018 with reverse dc) to get good penetration on heaver stock

You may be able to weld 1/4 inch stock but it takes lots of skill and prep work. If you cant weld 1/8 inch stock you will never weld 1/4 inch.

 

[Chain Bender]

30 amp is the biggest breaker I would ever put on ANY 110/120 wiring I did. Pro's might do it, but I just can't do it.

Guys, I might sound confused and like a fool, but I'm not. My guages are set up correctly. Tank pressure was around 1200 psi last time I looked at it close and flow is/was around 32. Some say go to 15, some say go up above 30. I using Blue Demon ER70S-60 .030 Solid wire. Machine is running DECP and I AM using 75% Argon/25% CO2. That is exactly what the owner's manual and the diagram on the inside of the door flap recommend.

I have pretty much come to the conclusion that much over 3/16" isn't gonna work on MY table. I was thinking about pre-heating the heavy stuff like I sometimes do aluminum, but my pony bottles are empty. Probably should just stick with the stick until I get a bigger (if ever) MIG. I don't weld enough to justify the money spent on one. My wife bought me the 140 for a Christmans present about 6 or 7 years ago. I'm just trying to use it and as said above, probably asking it to do something it/I will never get it to do. I'm welding on big pieces of metal that dissapate (sp) more heat than my machine can put into it.


Got lots of last minute things to do. thanks for input

CB

 

[Chilly807]

The wire stick out should be about 1/2 inch at an angle of 30 deg to the work.

That's a good tip, I often let the stick out get too long, and end up with a lumpy, cold looking weld.

I think you've got lots of power to the welder, normally 20 amps on 12/2 wire is plenty for a 110v welder.

I believe you've either got a welder issue, or it's a technique problem. Either is correctable, technique being the easiest to fix.

With the edges of the work beveled, the Hobart should lay a nice smooth weld in the V on the first pass, and round it up nicely on the second or third on 1/4 stock.

I'm going to try to set up my spare hood with a video camera behind it so I can actually critique my own welding in slow time. If it turns out well, I'll post it here.

Sean

 

[upthecreek]

I to am a novice welder. I have the same machine and can't sufficiently weld 1/4" plate. I tack it together and take it my brother's shop and use the miller 210.
Cleanliness is another key. If the metal is not prepped properly, forget it. Don't forget a solid ground. Even with 3/16", I put the ground as close to the weld as possible and do a little preheat with mapp gas. Especially if the metal has sat outside for a length of time.
Heat is on #4 with the speed on 35-40. I use .030 wire with 75/25 gas set on 20 for flow.