May need a heat pump. Any brand suggestions?

[Pilot]

Shop around, shop around and shop some more. Ask lots of questions.

We bought our heat pump 1.5 yrs. ago. Planned to use our existing propane system for backup heat when the weather got cold. Talked to about 15 outfits. Bids ran from about $3,000 up to $12,000+. Some said we needed a new furnace, some said we didn't. Some wanted to gold plate the unit, some used powder coating.

We ended up with a contractor our builder recommended who bid $3,500 (I think--might have been $4,200) and who said we didn't need a new furnace. 2 weeks after he was done, he called and said he screwed up, that we did need a new furnace as the blower in ours was too small. "Uh oh", I thought. Then he said that since it was his mistake, he would give us a new furnace for free.

While he did the work, I asked how much a new furnace like that cost. He said there was a huge markup and that his cost was about $600 for a unit that lists for $1,800.

 

[Bird]

Your extended labor warranty is under the GoodCare plan if done through Goodman.


I am curious, are they charging you a maintenance agreement or do they come out to your home each year at no charge? If they will come out 24/7 to your place for any kind of emergency at no charge, not sure how they aren't charging you to do the maintenance. Then the question is if they are charging you, what is that dollar amount? For a company to come out at ANY time of the day or night and not charge for it (for an emergency), they're making their money somewhere, because if they aren't, sooner or later they'll go out of business.

First, they made some money when they sold me the 10 year parts and labor warranty. I just don't remember how much that added to the cost of the system. Second, the routine checkup last month was the only "free" checkup. They'll only be back now if I call with a problem. If there's no problem and I just want them to come for a check or "Maintenance Tune-Up", I think that will cost me about $79, if I remember right. Now they also offer "Club Memberships"; Silver is $12 a month, Gold is $24 a month, and Platinum is $32 a month. All of those include (1) no overtime charges, (2) on time or service fee is free, (3) front of the line service, and (2) two maintenance Tune-Ups a year. They then vary on the amount of discounts, but only the maintenance Tune-Ups are anything I'd benefit from since the other is paid for anyway, so the cheapest would be the only one to consider. Two checkups a year for $12 a month or just pay abou $79 when I want them to do such a checkup. So far I haven't enrolled in the "club".:laughing:

 

[dex3361]

I installed a Goodman a bout 2 years ago I made sure and got a scroll compressor and I agree with what the others said that there are only a few manufacturers of the components and the major difference id the sheet metal housings and the way the coils are laid out. I had a Rheem unit that was 20 years old and had zero problems till the very end and I had to replace a contactor on the compressor. I wanted to replace the unit on my terms. The installation and service of the unit is the determining factor on the life of the unit. I chose a 14 SEER HP that allowed me to get the rebate and it didn't have all of the computer controls the the higher SEER rated HPs had. I subscribe to simpler is better. JMHO

 

[EE_Bota]

I was sorting through the records last night, and what I found was a bit surprising. At the time my Lennox (the one I am replacing) was purchased, the minimum by law was 10 SEER. The unit is a 13.5 SEER. Now, the minimum is a 13 SEER, so my unit, if new, could be sold as a new unit today though it is 21 years old!

The actual characteristics are 13.5 SEER 2.5 Ton, with 10 KW resistance coils.
The previous home owner had only one problem...a leak in the line set. I have has a new contactor, new defrost timer, a new inside motor, and a LEAK IN THE LINE SET.

The line set leak was expensive, costing me well over $600 dollars. The contractor could not find the leak, and was quite busy roughing up my A coil before I stopped him. I insisted that I would find the leak (out of fear of damage to the A coil). Once I got under the house, I could clearly hear the leak, it was in the line set.

The line set is ON THE GROUND under the house. It is 15 paces (45') long. I believe that the length combined with being on the ground is what ruins the line set (length increases odds, on ground provides rocks to rub against, moisture and salts to corrode, etc.)

I am not sure how that line set was supposed to be done, but I intend to find out, since it was my existing units number one source of failure.

Since the last owners exceeded minimum SEER by 3, I am going to attempt to do the same thing. As you get into the 19 and 20 SEER range, you are getting top of the line, and top pricing. In the old Sears lingo. it is BEST, but I am going to go "better," and shoot for 16, three higher than now like the last guy did. In the Trane line, that will be a two stage Copeland Scroll, whereas BEST would be two separate compressors. I am not that keen on two separate compressors.

Anyone have a LONG line set in a crawl space who could tell me how that is supposed to be done?

 

[dmccarty]

Anyone have a LONG line set in a crawl space who could tell me how that is supposed to be done?

Hang it from the floor joists?

Our HVAC line runs almost 20 feet up then another 60+feet in the attic. The attic run is hung on the rafter ties.

We have a Goodman unit as well. You might want to search TBN about HVAC units. I remember a conversation years ago covering the different brands that was interesting.

Later,
Dan

 

[techman]

I do HVAC as a side business. Most I have installed are Goodmana. About 10-15 years ago they did not have a good reputation. Since that time they have really focused on design and quality. Comparable with any of the big names, but no big name price penalty. Most parts internally are name brand US made goods.

Get a scroll compressor model. Extended 10 year warranty is available, and standard on some models. The last factor is the installer. Pay a little extra and get someone with a good reputation. The install can make or break any job, no matter who's hardware is used.

Residential Products

In general, the highest SEER, 18 and some 16 are such a price jump that it does not make economical sense for the additional small savings.

paul

 

[Bird]

I am curious, are they charging you a maintenance agreement or do they come out to your home each year at no charge? If they will come out 24/7 to your place for any kind of emergency at no charge, not sure how they aren't charging you to do the maintenance. Then the question is if they are charging you, what is that dollar amount? For a company to come out at ANY time of the day or night and not charge for it (for an emergency), they're making their money somewhere, because if they aren't, sooner or later they'll go out of business.

I stopped by A#!'s office this morning to visit and the young man there confirmed everything I've already said. Parts and labor on anything they installed are covered for 10 years. So that's the inside and outside units, copper lines, and thermostat. But they didn't replace the ductwork which will probably never need anything anyway. So I didn't really need anything, but if I wanted them to come out and do the "maintenance tune-ups", I could call and pay for it at the time or of course I can pay the $12 a month and they'll just call to make an appointment and come do it in the Spring and again in the Fall. So I decided to go ahead with the $12 a month, which also includes a discount on anything else I buy from them, but I probably won't use that feature. I usually do the cleaning and such myself, but I'll just let them do it.

 

[EE_Bota]

I got my first quote today, and the price to him is $6284, but nets out to me as $5734 after all rebates and tax credits.

This will get me Carrier outdoor unit with single stage Copeland scroll compressor, and an indoor unit with variable speed fan, 3kw first stage heat, 6kw second stage heat, and an Air Knight bulb that tries to smack the snot out of bacteria and mold.

The thermostat will overcome some of the aspects of my Hunter thermostat, since the new Infinity thermostat will not needlessly turn on strip heat when coming out of rest by my weekly program.

The salesman said that he doesn't like the lines on the ground either since he is such a big man, he can easily crush them, but he says it is industry practice, so he does not want to make others sound bad for doing it. He said it will not be done in my case, and the lines will be hung from joists, and well insulated for protection.

The guy said my Lennox was not rated as highly as the literature said it was, and that rating is based on a 2.5 ton outdoor unit hooked to a 5 ton indoor unit coil. He said that it was the highest rated unit that could have been put in at that tonnage, though.

He claimed he has been doing this stuff since he was 14 because his step dad did it for a living. He had the specs and match-ups for my old unit on his PC. He claimed that as low as my bill is, it still can and will go lower. He admitted payback will be slow at present rates, but the comfort level will be higher than previously, and the rates could very well go up. He scanned the property and said...I see why it's low...The high trees on this hill make a small envelope for the sun to get through, lowering your heat exposure.

He said he can put me in American Standard, which essentially the same as Trane, for about $200 more, but the unit will not be as good, since the communications during heating are lacking in his opinion.

I asked him to tell my why his is better than Trane. He said Trane is a good unit, and I am choosing between the very best, but the Trane will will not coordinate the indoor unit and the outdoor unit quite as well as the Carrier will in heating mode, and heating is the challenge, since electricity is the fuel when strip heat comes on. He said that I would not need to rewire the Infinity, nor can I, since the lines are communication lines, and the microprocessor uses them to communicate, not to flip relays.

The Trane guy will be here in 10 minutes. Well that was true, he called and said he will be 30 minutes late. I like the way the high end Tranes have the top closed, and vent out the sides of the top, rather than straight up, and have non metallic base pans to since that will eliminate corrosion there.

But the Trane salesman will have to really know his stuff to beat this guy, who is an ex-military electronics guy, who did not tell me anything I KNOW is wrong.

Last, he said he could put me in a higher SEER unit, but often these may not payback, and at my tonnage, it is a ripoff because the thing will be a two stage, but will almost always stay in the first stage, so it only looks good on paper, but will not pan out in practice.

He claimed that the Infinity system monitors indoor temps, outdoor temps, and duct static pressures, and coordinates the indoor and outdoor better than any other.

He said if I needed a package unit, he would offer me American Standard because you can't kill them. He said the "nothing stops a Trane" is not true for the splits, but is true for the package units, and the chillers.

 

[KTurner]

an Air Knight bulb that tries to smack the snot out of bacteria and mold.

From what they told me when we were given quotes a few weeks ago, those bulbs need to be replaced annually at roughly $100 a pop (and one of them recommended multiple bulbs).

One thing that is just a little annoying with our new unit. The outdoor unit is below our kitchen window on the east side of the house. The fan blades are so shiny that the ceiling above the kitchen window looks like a strobe light at times.

Keith

 

[troutsqueezer]

I cannot emphasize enough the importance of using a well-known contractor with experienced install technicians to do the job. Learn from my experience.

Two years ago the wife and I decided to invest some money in our heat pump system since I am near retirement and we didn't want to be saddled with expensive and unpredictable HVAC repairs going forward. I did all my research and decided on a 3 ton 15 Seer Coleman, almost top of the line Echelon Series. Dual stage compressor, ultra quiet, split unit. Got three bids, from $8,500 to $12,500. Went with the $8,500 bid since the guy was close and seemed to know what he was talking about.

Here's the (relatively) short story: I'll skip the part about the big mess that was left from the install what with all the missing screws, holes in the walls, bent air handler panels, etc. The first summer, the unit stopped cooling. A different technician showed up, took a look and said the first techician installed the system incorrectly and I would need a new reversing valve. Well, that didn't fix it so then he said I needed a new Scroll compressor. Now, I had a 5 year service contract (ten actually but that is another story) and the compressor was covered but I had to pay to get it shipped from the factory at a cost of a couple hundred bucks. He replaced that, still didn't work. A couple of phone calls to someone who knew better and he realized that the reversing valve needs to be replaced at the same time or it would be ruined (or some similar story) so another reversing valve gets installed.
The unit worked for awhile.

The wife couldn't read the dinky thermostat they installed because the display was, well, dinky. I bought a nice one that could handle two stage cooling and three stage heating but when I went to replace it I found the wires weren't there to support all these stages. The contractor saved money by installing a thermostat that would not take advantage of two stage cooling, nor three stage heating. I wound up becoming an expert on thermostat wiring and got everything working as it should myself since I no longer trusted the contractor. I sent the contractor an angry email.

The next summer, the fan went out on the outside unit. Cost to replace: $650. I sure am glad I paid $8.5k to save some money on efficiency.

The frustrating part was I never could track down anyone at Coleman to complain to and I tried very hard to do that. What I did find out was most roads lead back to just two or maybe three companies. For example, Coleman is owned by York which is owned by Unitary which is owned by Johnson Controls. I believe Lennox may be one of their subsidiaries too but not sure. Coleman and Goodman may also have the same parents.