What do the truck and trailer gurus think of this?

[dcyrilc]

Hey Matt,

Hope you haven't minded us hijacking your thread and turning it into one about brake controllers. I'm finding this to be very interesting.

 

[Diamondpilot]

Is that true for all brake controllers? I'm going to have to check that out. I never guessed it would control the brake lights.

Best I can remember it does.

Chris

 

[Diamondpilot]

That really surprises me. It seems to me that would make it VERY hard to control braking. Either that, or the trailer brakes wouldn't do much in a hard stop. Any I've ever seen are like dcyrilc described... One knob adjusts the level, or braking strength. The other knob adjust the gain, or how far the pedal is pushed before the trailer brakes activate. The brakes then gradually increase braking force as the pedal is pushed.

Most I see now days have 1 knob only.

Chris

 

[Diamondpilot]

Best controllers I have used hands down are the ones that use a pressure sensor on the master cylinder like the Ford Factory one I have in my F-350. There are some good aftermarket ones that work the same. Real nice, never need adjusting, anti-lock brakes, ect.

I have not seen a old cable activated one in 10 years.

Chris

 

[Qapla]

I have used the controllers that hook up to the master cylinder with a small tube to allow the actual pressure to the brakes to be used in determining the amount of braking to apply. They worked quite good.

However, I also found that the placement of those controllers were not always the best, as they had to be placed where the brake-fluid line could be run.

My P3 uses the inertia method to apply the brakes. The harder I press the pedal, the quicker the truck tries to stop and the more power the controller sends to the trailer. So far, it has worked as advertised.

Also, by only having to connect wires to the controller allowed me to place the controller where it is convenient for me to see, adjust and manually operate when needed.

 

[Diamondpilot]

I have used the controllers that hook up to the master cylinder with a small tube to allow the actual pressure to the brakes to be used in determining the amount of braking to apply. They worked quite good.

However, I also found that the placement of those controllers were not always the best, as they had to be placed where the brake-fluid line could be run.

My P3 uses the inertia method to apply the brakes. The harder I press the pedal, the quicker the truck tries to stop and the more power the controller sends to the trailer. So far, it has worked as advertised.

Also, by only having to connect wires to the controller allowed me to place the controller where it is convenient for me to see, adjust and manually operate when needed.

The modern day ones made in the last 15 years use a pressure sensor that goes in a "T" fitting by the master cylinder. Last old style one I worked on with a brake line running to the controller itself was on a 1976 GMC C60. I bet it was installed in the late 70' or early 80's.

On the modern day ones from that sensor the only thing that must come though the firewall is a small wire. The ones I have seen are similar to a phone wire. You can mount the controller anywhere the wire will reach.

 

[Iplayfarmer]

Most I see now days have 1 knob only.

Chris

Maybe I am misunderstanding what JB4310 is trying to describe.

"They work off the brake light system, intercepts the signal from the switch. That's what tells it to apply brakes, but it's just on and off, can't tell how hard you are applying them."

I took this to mean that his brake controller is either full on or full off. I.e. there's no gradual increase in braking as the pedal is pushed further down.

Chris, even the ones you've seen with 1 knob still have some sensor that adjusts braking power depending on how hard you push the pedal. Right?

 

[Skyco]

re: the Jordan controller

I figured someone must of tried that, but like I mentioned I don't think that would be an accurate way to determine applied brake pressure. Knowing the brake pedal position is no guarantee of applied pressure. Brake pedal position changes constantly with brake wear as well as other factors.
Not to be rude, but that's probably why they don't make it anymore.


I have digital read out on mine as well, so I know where I should start, mine will flicker if there is not a good connection at the socket, so I have to clean it like you mentioned.

JB.

You may not think brake pedal position would be an accurate way to sense to sense applied pressure. Bet you never tried the Jordan.
Brake pedal position does not change with brake wear on any modern (last 20 years?) vehicle. Even if it did, the controller is easily adjusted.
Every time one lets up and re-applies the brakes the hydraulics "reset" so to speak.
Brake pedal position is a very accurate way to sense "need", the Jordan controller works fantastic, I'd even say perfectly. I have had many controllers and this is the best I've tried*. I never need to "fiddle around" (your term), with the settings, I know from experience where each one of my 5 trailers with brakes needs to be set based on the load on that trailer, twist the knob to the desired reading with full pressure on the brake pedal and I'm done.
It isn't made anymore because the owner of the patent owner and manufacturer retired. There have been a few attempts to restart manufacture of it but so far it hasn't happened. Last I read another competing brake controller company bought the rights and killed it to not hurt their product

All timer based controllers suck IMO.
All inertia based controllers suck also but a little less.:laughing:
The ones with the pressure sensors should work great, but be wary of tapping into the hydraulics on any vehicle with anti-locks, could be issues with warranty especially.
The real old ones where you tee in and run a brake line to the controller worked great too but with the advent of antilocks, that had to go away.

Of course all the Jordan "love" I have is moot- can't get one anymore
*If I had to replace the Jordan I'd go with the hydraulic pressure sensor types.

 

[Diamondpilot]

Maybe I am misunderstanding what JB4310 is trying to describe.

"They work off the brake light system, intercepts the signal from the switch. That's what tells it to apply brakes, but it's just on and off, can't tell how hard you are applying them."

I took this to mean that his brake controller is either full on or full off. I.e. there's no gradual increase in braking as the pedal is pushed further down.

Chris, even the ones you've seen with 1 knob still have some sensor that adjusts braking power depending on how hard you push the pedal. Right?

All that happens on a modern brake controller is a simple on and off signal via the brake light activation switch mounted at or near the brake pedal. Circuitry and time delay programing in the controller run a brake schedule based on inertia in some and simply a time delay.

So as far as the brake pedal SIGNAL is concerned all that is happening is a simple on and off signal electrically. Its up to the controller to do what it wants with that. The knob on most are noting more than a power adjustment. IE voltage and current going to the electric brakes.

The pressure sensor high end controllers are the only ones I know of on the market that take into account how much you PRESS the brake pedal.

Chris

Chris

 

[JB4310]

Most newer brake controllers have an internal pendulum type mechanism that adjusts the output to the trailer brakes. Any sensed over or under-braking will be addressed by the controller automatically.

Brake Controllers - Tekonsha

This sounds like the answer to the industry's needs. and the way of the future.
But I have to say my manual adjustment works just fine for me.

re: the Jordan controller

You may not think brake pedal position would be an accurate way to sense to sense applied pressure. Bet you never tried the Jordan.
Brake pedal position does not change with brake wear on any modern (last 20 years?) vehicle. Even if it did, the controller is easily adjusted.
Every time one lets up and re-applies the brakes the hydraulics "reset" so to speak.
Brake pedal position is a very accurate way to sense "need", the Jordan controller works fantastic, I'd even say perfectly. I have had many controllers and this is the best I've tried*. I never need to "fiddle around" (your term), with the settings, I know from experience where each one of my 5 trailers with brakes needs to be set based on the load on that trailer, twist the knob to the desired reading with full pressure on the brake pedal and I'm done.
It isn't made anymore because the owner of the patent owner and manufacturer retired. There have been a few attempts to restart manufacture of it but so far it hasn't happened. Last I read another competing brake controller company bought the rights and killed it to not hurt their product

All timer based controllers suck IMO.
All inertia based controllers suck also but a little less.:laughing:
The ones with the pressure sensors should work great, but be wary of tapping into the hydraulics on any vehicle with anti-locks, could be issues with warranty especially.
The real old ones where you tee in and run a brake line to the controller worked great too but with the advent of antilocks, that had to go away.

Of course all the Jordan "love" I have is moot- can't get one anymore
*If I had to replace the Jordan I'd go with the hydraulic pressure sensor types.

Well I'd be a fool to argue with success

And you are right brake pedal position shouldn't change that much, but from my experience, even with my newest vehicles it does vary under certain conditions.

But like you say it's all moot now. I think that internal pendulum inertia type from HHR's link will be the standard. Next best thing to the master cylinder sensor DP mentioned.

JB.