Would a compact tractor meet my needs or should I go for more horsepower?

[Figato]

I'm in the market for a used tractor and bush hog.
I see a lot of used Japanese tractors out there, mostly grey market.
Most run in the ~15 - 17hp range. Higher HP are usually American and VERY old.

The need I'm trying to meet with this tractor is at my hunting land.

Problems I hope this tractor can solve:

• Bush hog the lawn when it gets too high
• (Just very high grass).
  
• Mow the lawn
• (by that I mean, cut it when it is knee or ankle high)
  
• Bush hog the other 2 acres when forage crops are gone
  
• Plow, disc fields for forage crops and also a vegetable garden.
  
• It would also be nice if I could scrape / grade the dirt road leading up to the land.
  

Concerns:
Will the bush hog handle waist high grass without just folding it over?
Will the bush hog be able to mow when the grass isn't too high?
Will the ~15hp motor be strong enough to plow,disc or grade?

Also, what should I pay for this setup?

Many questions, I know, so thanks in advance.

 

[beenthere]

Are you willing to invest $5k ? $10k ?

Are you in to doing mechanical work like the engine, tranny, ?

Good at finding old replacement parts from a used parts yard?

More questions, I know

Your concerns:
Yes
Yes
Not likely...IMO

 

[Soundguy]

did I hear you say bushhog, plow and disc?

get the bigger / older tractor.

a ford gasser in the 600/601 or preferably a 800/801 series.. or even a rowcrop if it is flat land. that will keep you in the 3000$ range with implements. A ford 2000/3000 diesel would be a tad more, but in the same basic price range.. excelent plow / disc machines.. decent with a brush hog.. ford 8XX has 45 hp and not much longer than a jap compact at half the hp and weight


soundguy

 

[MarkV]

There is a general rule of thumb that recommends 5 PTO hp, not gross hp, per foot of rotary mower (bush hog). When you start adding plow and disc needs in addition I believe you will be disappointed with the results from tractors in the 15 to 17 horsepower range.

MarkV

 

[Figato]

did I hear you say bushhog, plow and disc?

get the bigger / older tractor.

a ford gasser in the 600/601 or preferably a 800/801 series.. or even a rowcrop if it is flat land. that will keep you in the 3000$ range with implements. A ford 2000/3000 diesel would be a tad more, but in the same basic price range.. excelent plow / disc machines.. decent with a brush hog.. ford 8XX has 45 hp and not much longer than a jap compact at half the hp and weight


soundguy

I've been reluctant to even look at gas tractors.
For one, gas engines don't last as long and I haven't seen a single tractor (of any type) less than 30 years old.
Another is that gas hp doesn't equal diesel hp, so while I might find a deal on a gas 20hp aren't I getting about the same power as a diesel 15hp?

Thoughts?

 

[flusher]

I'm in the market for a used tractor and bush hog.
I see a lot of used Japanese tractors out there, mostly grey market.
Most run in the ~15 - 17hp range. Higher HP are usually American and VERY old.

The need I'm trying to meet with this tractor is at my hunting land.

Problems I hope this tractor can solve:

• 
  
• Bush hog the lawn when it gets too high
• (Just very high grass).
  
• Mow the lawn
• (by that I mean, cut it when it is knee or ankle high)
  
• Bush hog the other 2 acres when forage crops are gone
  
• Plow, disc fields for forage crops and also a vegetable garden.
  
• It would also be nice if I could scrape / grade the dirt road leading up to the land.
  

Concerns:
Will the bush hog handle waist high grass without just folding it over?
Will the bush hog be able to mow when the grass isn't too high?
Will the ~15hp motor be strong enough to plow,disc or grade?

Also, what should I pay for this setup?

Many questions, I know, so thanks in advance.

I have a 1951 Farmall Super A tractor (19 hp engine, 16 hp pto) that I bought for $1300 off craigslist including a mid-mounted 6-ft sicklebar mower and a 5-ft wide scraper blade. It has a hydraulic 3-point hitch--somewhat unusual for a Farmall of this vintage which usually had a 2-point hitch. Caltrans owned this tractor (for mowing highway ditches) and added an aftermarket 3-point hitch to this one.



A little tractor like this will do the jobs you listed--maybe not as quickly as a more powerful tractor. YOu could probably bush hog your two acres in 3 hours or so.

Parts are readily available and not overly expensive.

You don't have to spend a lot of bucks for big horsepower if you shop around for deals like this one.

Go to YouTube and check out the videos on Super A's like this one to see it do it's stuff. Then decide if you need more hp to work on your food plot.

Good luck.

 

[Soundguy]

I've been reluctant to even look at gas tractors.
For one, gas engines don't last as long and I haven't seen a single tractor (of any type) less than 30 years old.
Another is that gas hp doesn't equal diesel hp, so while I might find a deal on a gas 20hp aren't I getting about the same power as a diesel 15hp?

Thoughts?

your'e a funny guy.

a hp is a hp.. doesn't matter if it's gas, diesel or steam.. IE 33,000 lb.ft./minute

20 hp is 20 hp.. 15hp is 15 hp.

that said.. diesels are generally more torque on the low end than gassers are.

add to that that 2 cyl machines are as well, when compaired to 3 or 4 cyl machines.

Torque, also called moment or moment of force is the tendency of a force to rotate an object about an axis, fulcrum, or pivot point.

as far as gassers less than 30.. that
s not surprising.. most gassers other than lp machines went out of production in the late 70's or early 80's.

I was thinking more of the mid 50's to mid 60's range. most% of my tractors are from that era, and probably 85% of them are gassers, with a few of my machines being diesel.

as for lasting a while? it all depends.

I expect about 4000hrs from a mid size diesel.. say.. 30-40 hp.. and near double that up to 100 hp, and up to 10k to 12k above 100 hp. that assuumes good maintenance practices. I know plenty of 30-40 yearold diesels easilly making those numbers. IE.. late 60's and 70's era machines.

gassers.. well.. again.. depends on use and maintenance. the average non comercial non farming user simply isn't going to amass too many hours on a tractor per year. notr uncommon to find 30-40-50 year old machines with hundreds or a thousand hours on them... ie.. old but just broke in... add to that that a old gasser is pretty easy to breathe a few more decades of life into by dropping in a set of rings, reaming the ridge ont he cyl liner, honing the cyl, and rolling in some main and rod bearing shells. and a quickie hand lap job on the valves..ie 150$ of parts and a day of wrench turning. and you likely pick up some decent oil psi, and compression.. usually enough for another decade of light to moderate 'home-owner' use.

price on all these machiens are pennies on the dollar.

i just picked up a late 70's ford 4600 with old mower for 3900$ just under 50 hp and it's a beast.. 3 cyl diesel... ready to go.. just took a few weeks of minor fixin and some gooey stuff and gaskets and some body work to make it look perty .

from your answers.. it doesn't sound like what you stated. ie..

you don't want a used tractor as you are overly concerned about repairs.

and you deffinately don't want 15hp if you want to do real mowing, discing and plowing.

ground engagement goes better with some weight and drawbar hp. to get more drawbar hp.. you need weight... for the implement to work good, especially disc harroes.. you want heavy units. the disc a 15hp scut will pull will be about the same size as what a atv would pull.. a sad lil cat 0 jobber.

as for a plow.. at that hp you are stuck with a single bottom.. small one at that.

soundguy

 

[Transit]

Like mark points out, you need hp to drive a brush hog of any given size and then hp to move the tractor. Under power and you will over heat the engine, blow the head, eat the tranny and clutch pack and drive it into a early grave.
With a 5 foot hog you should be looking at 30 hp for safety.

 

[k0ua]

I have a 1951 Farmall Super A tractor (19 hp engine, 16 hp pto) that I bought for $1300 off craigslist including a mid-mounted 6-ft sicklebar mower and a 5-ft wide scraper blade. It has a hydraulic 3-point hitch--somewhat unusual for a Farmall of this vintage which usually had a 2-point hitch. Caltrans owned this tractor (for mowing highway ditches) and added an aftermarket 3-point hitch to this one.

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A little tractor like this will do the jobs you listed--maybe not as quickly as a more powerful tractor. YOu could probably bush hog your two acres in 3 hours or so.

Parts are readily available and not overly expensive.

You don't have to spend a lot of bucks for big horsepower if you shop around for deals like this one.

Go to YouTube and check out the videos on Super A's like this one to see it do it's stuff. Then decide if you need more hp to work on your food plot.

Good luck.

Wow I grew up with one of those, I think ours was a 49, but not sure, I have never seen one before with a 3pt. our was a 2pt of course. I think I first drove it when I was about 8 or 9, first gear only, Dad set the throttle. I can still remember every little detail about that tractor, from the pull ring for the choke on the left to the starter pull ring on the right, and the little zinc ignition switch by the one and only fuse. Ours had some cultivatar tines in the middle that were hydraulic operated. Those pics sure bring back memories.. Thanks.

James K0UA

 

[Figato]

your'e a funny guy.

a hp is a hp.. doesn't matter if it's gas, diesel or steam.. IE 33,000 lb.ft./minute

20 hp is 20 hp.. 15hp is 15 hp.

that said.. diesels are generally more torque on the low end than gassers are.

Of course, but I can't find torque specs on a 30 y.o. tractor. So when I see 20hp gas, I have to figure that it can't DO what a 20hp diesel can DO because of the difference in available torque.

30-40-50 year old machines with hundreds or a thousand hours on them... ie.. old but just broke in...

That's what I was looking for.

you don't want a used tractor as you are overly concerned about repairs.

and you deffinately don't want 15hp if you want to do real mowing, discing and plowing.

ground engagement goes better with some weight and drawbar hp. to get more drawbar hp.. you need weight... for the implement to work good, especially disc harroes.. you want heavy units. the disc a 15hp scut will pull will be about the same size as what a atv would pull.. a sad lil cat 0 jobber.

as for a plow.. at that hp you are stuck with a single bottom.. small one at that.

soundguy

Repairs: I want one to get me through this season at least. After that, I don't mind if it nickels and dimes me a bit.
Major repairs - No.

I don't know how "real" the discing and plowing will be. Food plots, garden etc.

Good info. I'd still feel better with a diesel, but I suppose a low-hours gas number is worth a look.

 

[flusher]

Wow I grew up with one of those, I think ours was a 49, but not sure, I have never seen one before with a 3pt. our was a 2pt of course. I think I first drove it when I was about 8 or 9, first gear only, Dad set the throttle. I can still remember every little detail about that tractor, from the pull ring for the choke on the left to the starter pull ring on the right, and the little zinc ignition switch by the one and only fuse. Ours had some cultivatar tines in the middle that were hydraulic operated. Those pics sure bring back memories.. Thanks.

James K0UA

Glad you like them.

 

[jenkinsph]

I've been reluctant to even look at gas tractors.
For one, gas engines don't last as long and I haven't seen a single tractor (of any type) less than 30 years old.
Another is that gas hp doesn't equal diesel hp, so while I might find a deal on a gas 20hp aren't I getting about the same power as a diesel 15hp?

Thoughts?

Old gas tractors have and had plenty of longevity in them, these were premium heavy duty engines built to last. If you want a good used tractor on a limited budget consider the older gas and diesel models.

Soundguy is well informed and knowledgeable about the older Fords and if you are considering a used tractor at a low cost his advice is worth alot.

 

[Soundguy]

Of course, but I can't find torque specs on a 30 y.o. tractor. So when I see 20hp gas, I have to figure that it can't DO what a 20hp diesel can DO because of the difference in available torque.

you are still missing it.

a hp is a hp.

I think you may be used to seeing riding lawnmowers with their funny hp ratings.. ie.. max hp with no equipment installed using a different fuel and fuel mix than the user would, run at max rpm, right befor ehte engine detonates. an ag tractor hp rating is just that. it's REAL USEABLE hp. and if you can't find the specs you need you are not looking .. the nebraska tests list belt, drawbar and engine hp.

since we are talking about old fords.. ie.. the 4 cyl series.. you generally see the diesel engine setting about 1-2 hp under their gasser counterparts. in the big mix. they do about the same work with the diesels using less fuel.. but they -ARE-, without a doubt.. lower hp.. and I already defined what hp was as a unit of measured work that you can calculate on paper.

Repairs: I want one to get me through this season at least. After that, I don't mind if it nickels and dimes me a bit.
Major repairs - No.

no reason why you can't spend 2500$ and get a good running ford 00/01 series and have it ready to run when you pick it up from the seller.. and other than routine maintenance, unless you break something.. no reason it won't continue to run. if you buy a damaged one for less $.. then it will need repairs.. etc.

if you want a diesel, I would reccomend looking at 65+ machines.. perhaps a 2000/3000 3 cyl. in 59 there were 4 cyl diesels.. but in general.. if I want a gas tractor.. I look at 55-64.. if I want a diesel.. I look at 65+ the 65+ have gassers.. but I don't care for the holley carbs on them.. the pre 65 units had diesels back to 1959.. but again.. they are not as popular.. though if you do get a prior model diesel.. get one in an 801 /4000series or higher.. don't go for a 601/2000 4 cyl as the 144ci diesels are harder to get parts for.. while the 801/4000 172ci diesels are easier to get parts for.

gassers have tons of parts available..

Good info. I'd still feel better with a diesel, but I suppose a low-hours gas number is worth a look.

660, 661,860, 861 those all get you live pto the *4* 4 speed models won't have live pto.. but are otherwise good tractors too.

diesels were available in 59 with the *01 series. and 2000/4000 with a 5spd -SHOULD- also have live pto

if you want a diesel.. look for a 2000/3000 65-5 preferably with an 8spd.. and get live pto.

other trans are a 6 spd or a 4 spd... and no live pto

you can get power steering as an option on any of the units I mentioned.. though the later 01/000 series are more common to have it.

there will also be 'trike / wide front rowcrop models similar to those. for instance.. a 960 is the rowcrop version of an 860. sets taller.. might have a single, narrow dual, or wide dual front setup.. gear reduction drop boxes in the back.. etc. otherwise similar in capabilities and hp to it's counterparts.. though generally a little cheaper. on flat land.. if you will be plowing and discing and mowing.. a rowcrop gives you a good field of vision and will be slightly cheape rthan the agg models.

soundguy

 

[Farmwithjunk]

I've been reluctant to even look at gas tractors.
For one, gas engines don't last as long and I haven't seen a single tractor (of any type) less than 30 years old.
Another is that gas hp doesn't equal diesel hp, so while I might find a deal on a gas 20hp aren't I getting about the same power as a diesel 15hp?

Thoughts?

HP is HP.... No different in one hp from a diesel and one hp from a gas. Just be aware of how that hp is rated....(ie "gross engine hp" , "net engine hp", "pto hp", "drawbar hp", ect) SOME diesels are more durable, more efficient, and have more TORQUE RESERVE, but not as a hard rule, more of a generality.

I know of 60 and 70 year old gassers that are still working every day, never had the valve cover off....Now try to convince me they don't last as long. You ain't gonna win THAT debate.

Also, I have old tractors and I have several new tractors (less than 2 years old) My older ones are FAR more reliable, far LESS expensive to operate and maintain, and I dare say BETTER tractors than my newer ones. The single most reliable mechanical "device" I've ever been around is a 40 year old MF 150 (pic in my Avatar) I use it approx 200 hours per year. Other than a couple flat tires, a fuel filter last fall, and the regular oil changes, it hasn't had a wrench near it in 3 years. (and 3 years ago was only a new fan belt.) It IS diesel.....One of the most reliable and efficient, if not THE most reliable and efficient diesel ever built (Perkins AD3-152, 3-cylinder)

All things equal, I'd MUCH rather have a diesel than gas if I'm working it hard, but that's based around SPECIFIC diesels in SPECIFIC models of tractors rather than a "broad strokes" one is better than the other comparison.

Lastly, parts are VERY easy to get for most of the old tractors that were fairly popular (and still have many examples "in the field") Same cannot be said for all the imports built in the last 20 years.

In MY book, simplicity of design equate directly to reliability. A NEW tractor is "new" for about 20 minutes.....Old tractors stay old forever!

 

[Soundguy]

couldn't have said it better myself.

soundguy

 

[MESSMAKER]

It sounds like a 2000 Ford or a MF135 would be just what you need. Parts are easy to find and they will do what you need with no strain. Should be able to find one for $3500 or less.

 

[Figato]

HP is HP.... No different in one hp from a diesel and one hp from a gas. Just be aware of how that hp is rated....(ie "gross engine hp" , "net engine hp", "pto hp", "drawbar hp", ect) SOME diesels are more durable, more efficient, and have more TORQUE RESERVE, but not as a hard rule, more of a generality.

Hate to belabor this point, but if you see 25hp gas
And you see 25hp diesel with NO other specs, which will have more available torque and therefore will do more work?
IOW:

you generally see the diesel engine setting about 1-2 hp under their gasser counterparts. in the big mix. they do about the same work with the diesels using less fuel.. but they -ARE-, without a doubt.. lower hp..

That's what I was trying to convey in the OP in the simplest (albeit incorrect) terms.

Onward.

Good advice from all.
Point taken about old gas engines.

Just a question:
What did folks do with all those old Farmall cubs, JD 18hp and grey market Kubotas out there that run under 20hp?
They had to be good for something, and I'd think that my use would be minimal compared to work on even a small family farm.
Not much agriculture experience here.

 

[Farmwithjunk]

Hate to belabor this point, but if you see 25hp gas
And you see 25hp diesel with NO other specs, which will have more available torque and therefore will do more work?
That's what I was trying to convey in the OP in the simplest (albeit incorrect) terms.

Onward.

Good advice from all.
Point taken about old gas engines.

Just a question:
What did folks do with all those old Farmall cubs, JD 18hp and grey market Kubotas out there that run under 20hp?
They had to be good for something, and I'd think that my use would be minimal compared to work on even a small family farm.
Not much agriculture experience here.

Which one will have the most available torque? Tell me SPECIFICALLY which gas and which diesel you're comparing.....No carved in stone rule as to which one it is..... I've seen many a gas engine that would outwork a number of various diesels....From there, I've learned the hard way NOT to make assumptions based on generalities.

 

[Soundguy]

Hate to belabor this point, but if you see 25hp gas
And you see 25hp diesel with NO other specs, which will have more available torque and therefore will do more work?
IOW:

withno other specs you can't tell. as FWJ said.. you need to know the specifics of the engine to know the torque curve.

hp is a measure of work done. plain and simple..it's a finite calculation .. I explained it in my previous post about the work/vs/time.

Just a question:
What did folks do with all those old Farmall cubs, JD 18hp and grey market Kubotas out there that run under 20hp?
They had to be good for something, and I'd think that my use would be minimal compared to work on even a small family farm.
Not much agriculture experience here.

many smaller tractors were for cultivating.

ever hear the term cultavision?

i have a 66 ih cub.. it's offset to let you see the area in front of you.. I also have an allis g, rear engine open front frame tractor. both are about 11 hp.

they pulled cultivators or single bottom plows or a disc plow.. could also run 44" belly mowers, or 5' sickle bar mowers.

soundguy

 

[Figato]

many smaller tractors were for cultivating.

ever hear the term cultavision?

Heard it but never quite understood it. I've heard it used to mean "agriculture" in general.
Also heard it used as a term to describe weeding.

they pulled cultivators or single bottom plows or a disc plow.. could also run 44" belly mowers, or 5' sickle bar mowers.

soundguy

Okay. This is what I think would be toughest on a tractor.
A bottom plow goes really to turn over soil? Is it the deepest type of plowing you can do? Anyway that seems pretty tough on a tractor.

Discing - I would think would be easier as it doesn't quite dig as deep.

This is all new to me. Not afraid of saying it.

Anyway, here's where I'm at:

Just got a call from a guy - has a very new looking Yanmar 1500 diesel 18hp.
5 foot scraper included.
Again, I want to bush hog about 3 acres. (not too dense)
Plow and disc both a garden plot and forage crops.
I'd like to use the scraper to take the ruts out of my dirt roads.

Reading the above, I'd have to say the consensus would be:
Wait for more HP
Agreed?