Mark @ Everlast
Advertiser
South Africa in fact has an up and coming inverter welder company. All in house engineered too. Tough stuff.
http://www.reeflex.co.za/
http://www.reeflex.co.za/
Plasma Cutter Choices
- Thread starter Perplexed
- Start date
- Views: 29771
crazyal
Super Member
It's too bad that a small group of people can't understand (as they type on a computer that is full of Chinese parts and most likely assembled in China) that all this China bashing does nothing to educate people. I find it's great when someone can support workers in a country they like but not everyone can or is willing to spend the extra money that they could spend somewhere else.
To the OP I respect you wanting to keep your choice quiet. Enjoy your choice and I'm sure there are a few here who will offer you great advise on how to best operate it.
On a side note my sister is moving to China for a couple of years. The American company her husband works for has been steadily increasing market share selling in China and they want to expand. So they are paying him a large amount of money to go over. I wonder, is a US company building products in China to sell to the Chinese and other Asian countries and sending the profits back here good or bad?
To the OP I respect you wanting to keep your choice quiet. Enjoy your choice and I'm sure there are a few here who will offer you great advise on how to best operate it.
On a side note my sister is moving to China for a couple of years. The American company her husband works for has been steadily increasing market share selling in China and they want to expand. So they are paying him a large amount of money to go over. I wonder, is a US company building products in China to sell to the Chinese and other Asian countries and sending the profits back here good or bad?
yomax4
Elite Member
- Joined
- Mar 11, 2007
- Messages
- 2,841
- Location
- Midwest
- Tractor
- ISEKI TA 247. Stihl Saws Gravely Zt's Polaris ATV's State Of The Art Welding Equipment
I work for a company that is Global in sales. We have factories in 9 countries and a new factory in China with 70% of the products sold to the Chinese Market. Our Factory makes products to sell in the USA too made from lower cost labor with the same strict guidlines we use in our 3 US factories. The only difference between our Chinese, Mexican, Malaysian, Italian, American and Austrailian production plants is the cost of Labor. In the USA, The average hourly cost of assembly is $92.00 mostly because of Unions. In Malaysia it is $19.00, In Austrailia it is $22.00, In China it is $12.00.. It is the same quality product in all of the factories backed by Industry Leading Warranties.. All I am saying is that Just because it comes from over seas does not meat it is lessor quality. If you look at the components of Any of the supposed USA made Cutting and Welding Equipment you will see that it really is not Made in USA. Pull the covers and read the boards..See for your self.
Bird
Rest in Peace
This thread has been pruned. We ask that all members remain civil and always be polite to others.
jimcolt
Gold Member
I usually respond quickly to posts such as this...however I have been on vacation and not with easy access to the site. After reading through the many posts it seems that the original posters subject and questions have been lost!
I do work for Hypertherm....we develop, design, engineer, assemble and test (and support) all of our plasma systems from our plants in and near Hanover NH, USA. Yes, there are many internal components in our systems that come from all over the planet. We do not have specifications in our design that dictate where individual components have to be produced, rather...we have strict technical specifications that dictate the performance expectations of every component (right down to the 6 cent resistors on PC Boards)...and all components go through detailed testing to ensure they meet these specs.
Further, all engineering, design and manufacturing funtions of Hypertherm products are focused on reliability and serviceability. These functions are all done by employee owners in our New Hampshire facilities....employee owners all have a stake in the company, and I dare say that adds value to the processes that they perform!
You will also notice that every new product from Hypertherm (and we produce plasma systems from 30 amps to 800 amps....for light duty to industrial 100% duty applications) has it's own unique torch design that is specific to the application. Our expertise is with the high temperature plasma physics...and our (over) 90 engineers (15 with pHD's) constantly improve the torch technology to increase robustness and reliability, as well as to improve cut speed, cut quality and consumable parts life. The torches on Hypertherm systems don't come cheap, they are not a commodity like most import system torches (copies of over 20 year old designs).....and they will produce the best cuts, the longest consumable life, and the best reliability over time.
Above is why the Hypertherm brand of plasma systems cost more than the imports. Put one of our torches in your hand (or on your cnc machine) and do some cutting...compare cut quality, cut speed and consumable life.....and then inquire about customer service from over 400,000 users of our US built machines...and you will see the value of what we do. It does not really matter what country a product is produced in....the products long term performance is dictated by the methods used in design and manufacturing as well as the effort that the company puts into after sale support of the products.
Hopefully this answers questions regarding differences in a system such as a Hypertherm as compared to many of the low cost imports. If anyone is ever in New Hampshire...I am always happy to provide a plant tour of Hypertherm to back up every statement made above....you can see the R&D labs (massive) the reliability labs(impressive) and the production of every one of our products live!
Jim Colt Hypertherm jim.colt@hypertherm.com
I do work for Hypertherm....we develop, design, engineer, assemble and test (and support) all of our plasma systems from our plants in and near Hanover NH, USA. Yes, there are many internal components in our systems that come from all over the planet. We do not have specifications in our design that dictate where individual components have to be produced, rather...we have strict technical specifications that dictate the performance expectations of every component (right down to the 6 cent resistors on PC Boards)...and all components go through detailed testing to ensure they meet these specs.
Further, all engineering, design and manufacturing funtions of Hypertherm products are focused on reliability and serviceability. These functions are all done by employee owners in our New Hampshire facilities....employee owners all have a stake in the company, and I dare say that adds value to the processes that they perform!
You will also notice that every new product from Hypertherm (and we produce plasma systems from 30 amps to 800 amps....for light duty to industrial 100% duty applications) has it's own unique torch design that is specific to the application. Our expertise is with the high temperature plasma physics...and our (over) 90 engineers (15 with pHD's) constantly improve the torch technology to increase robustness and reliability, as well as to improve cut speed, cut quality and consumable parts life. The torches on Hypertherm systems don't come cheap, they are not a commodity like most import system torches (copies of over 20 year old designs).....and they will produce the best cuts, the longest consumable life, and the best reliability over time.
Above is why the Hypertherm brand of plasma systems cost more than the imports. Put one of our torches in your hand (or on your cnc machine) and do some cutting...compare cut quality, cut speed and consumable life.....and then inquire about customer service from over 400,000 users of our US built machines...and you will see the value of what we do. It does not really matter what country a product is produced in....the products long term performance is dictated by the methods used in design and manufacturing as well as the effort that the company puts into after sale support of the products.
Hopefully this answers questions regarding differences in a system such as a Hypertherm as compared to many of the low cost imports. If anyone is ever in New Hampshire...I am always happy to provide a plant tour of Hypertherm to back up every statement made above....you can see the R&D labs (massive) the reliability labs(impressive) and the production of every one of our products live!
Jim Colt Hypertherm jim.colt@hypertherm.com
jimcolt
Gold Member
And, just to add to my last post....
It is clear that there is a market for extremely low cost plasma systems....just as there is for all types of extremely low cost tools (Harbor Freight). Generally speaking...you get what you pay for.
I have bought a few tools from Harbor Freight....but my rule of thumb is that I expect the tool to be used for a specific job....and if it works for that and perhaps even lasts a little longer then that means it was a good value. The more expensive tools in my shop are expected to last a long time, and hopefully my kids will inherit them to use long after I am gone. I expect to pay a lot more for the second category of tools...and I also expect the manufacturer of these tools to back them up with support long after the warranty has expired.
Back to plasma systems. You can use the analogy above when it comes to specifying a plasma system.
If your needs are minimal....or home hobbyist type use, and you do not intend to earn your living using your plasma system.....or you plan to complete one or two jobs that will easily offset the purchase price of a low cost plasma...then they are a simple choice. They will cut metal, they generally will cut to the maximum thickness that they are advertised for.
The drawbacks? The cut quality (I guarantee) is not as good as a similarly rated top brands (and I speak with Hypertherm experience), and the consumable life is not even close to the life of Hypertherm torch consumables. (consumables for the imports are less expensive to purchase, however dramatically longer life of the Hypertherm consumables makes them less expensive per foot of cut). Further....there is no direct link to the manufacturer on most import plasma systems...rather, when you have a technical issue you often have to deal with an importer that has very little input as to what the manufacturer builds.....or how the manufacturer deals with field issues.
In my early metal fabricating days (I started doing metal fab in my early 20's when I was heavily involved in stock car racing....at the time there were no affordable hand held plasma systems) and due to budget constraints I bought a lot of cheap import tools....although often I simply bought good quality second hand tools. I learned a lot of lessons about low cost import tools.....the biggest lesson was that they seemed to fail when I needed them most (my cheap import impact wrenches failed in the pits at a major race....and I never bought a cheap one again!) and the better quality tools...even the second hand ones...seemed to do their intended jobs day after day. The used Lincoln Mig welder I bought at that time occasionally hiccupped......but their service department was only a phone call away...and all issues were easily resolved.
Today, after earning a decent living for many years....I have a very nice home metal fabricating shop...and when I buy equipment I tend to buy major brand top quality stuff. I do try to buy American made...because it is good for the economy....however if an imported item seems to be a good quality product at a good price...then I will buy it. It is important to me that the tools and equipment are backed up by a manufacturer with a good reputation. I still occasionally buy cheap import tools....however before I buy them I search Craigslist and other sources to see if I can find a high quality similar tool from a reputable manufacturer at a decent price.
Summary.
1. Buy a low cost import plasma if it is all you can afford....and you need a plasma cutter. First....do your homework, make sure that it can do what you need it to do (these forums and the many users online can help). And....search carefully to see if you can find a good used major brand plasma that will do the job for you. There are over 50,000 used Hypertherm Powermax600's (40 amp air plasma that will blow the doors off any 60 amp import!) that often sell for $500 to $700.....a far better value than the imports.
2. Look at the major brands and google the model numbers online. You may be surprised at the pricing you can find for the Hypertherm Powermax30 or Powermax45! Often your local welding supply store will come close to matching the online prices...and now you not only have long term factory support....you also have a local dealer that can help you with the machine.
Happy cutting!
Jim Colt
It is clear that there is a market for extremely low cost plasma systems....just as there is for all types of extremely low cost tools (Harbor Freight). Generally speaking...you get what you pay for.
I have bought a few tools from Harbor Freight....but my rule of thumb is that I expect the tool to be used for a specific job....and if it works for that and perhaps even lasts a little longer then that means it was a good value. The more expensive tools in my shop are expected to last a long time, and hopefully my kids will inherit them to use long after I am gone. I expect to pay a lot more for the second category of tools...and I also expect the manufacturer of these tools to back them up with support long after the warranty has expired.
Back to plasma systems. You can use the analogy above when it comes to specifying a plasma system.
If your needs are minimal....or home hobbyist type use, and you do not intend to earn your living using your plasma system.....or you plan to complete one or two jobs that will easily offset the purchase price of a low cost plasma...then they are a simple choice. They will cut metal, they generally will cut to the maximum thickness that they are advertised for.
The drawbacks? The cut quality (I guarantee) is not as good as a similarly rated top brands (and I speak with Hypertherm experience), and the consumable life is not even close to the life of Hypertherm torch consumables. (consumables for the imports are less expensive to purchase, however dramatically longer life of the Hypertherm consumables makes them less expensive per foot of cut). Further....there is no direct link to the manufacturer on most import plasma systems...rather, when you have a technical issue you often have to deal with an importer that has very little input as to what the manufacturer builds.....or how the manufacturer deals with field issues.
In my early metal fabricating days (I started doing metal fab in my early 20's when I was heavily involved in stock car racing....at the time there were no affordable hand held plasma systems) and due to budget constraints I bought a lot of cheap import tools....although often I simply bought good quality second hand tools. I learned a lot of lessons about low cost import tools.....the biggest lesson was that they seemed to fail when I needed them most (my cheap import impact wrenches failed in the pits at a major race....and I never bought a cheap one again!) and the better quality tools...even the second hand ones...seemed to do their intended jobs day after day. The used Lincoln Mig welder I bought at that time occasionally hiccupped......but their service department was only a phone call away...and all issues were easily resolved.
Today, after earning a decent living for many years....I have a very nice home metal fabricating shop...and when I buy equipment I tend to buy major brand top quality stuff. I do try to buy American made...because it is good for the economy....however if an imported item seems to be a good quality product at a good price...then I will buy it. It is important to me that the tools and equipment are backed up by a manufacturer with a good reputation. I still occasionally buy cheap import tools....however before I buy them I search Craigslist and other sources to see if I can find a high quality similar tool from a reputable manufacturer at a decent price.
Summary.
1. Buy a low cost import plasma if it is all you can afford....and you need a plasma cutter. First....do your homework, make sure that it can do what you need it to do (these forums and the many users online can help). And....search carefully to see if you can find a good used major brand plasma that will do the job for you. There are over 50,000 used Hypertherm Powermax600's (40 amp air plasma that will blow the doors off any 60 amp import!) that often sell for $500 to $700.....a far better value than the imports.
2. Look at the major brands and google the model numbers online. You may be surprised at the pricing you can find for the Hypertherm Powermax30 or Powermax45! Often your local welding supply store will come close to matching the online prices...and now you not only have long term factory support....you also have a local dealer that can help you with the machine.
Happy cutting!
Jim Colt
Mark @ Everlast
Advertiser
I doubt if you are keeping up with the improvements from 4 years ago. I doubt the 600 would cut 1 1/4 or greater like our 60 amp will. Its obvious you are unaware of the torch improvements we have made, and the consumables that we have added. The reason for the short life of MANY aftermarket consumables is high TIN content. Our consumable factory uses low Tin content copper from Sweden, and Haas consumable halfnium inserts. You have a hard time making them wear out unless there is water in the line. Heard any complaints about our consumable life lately? I have used Hypertherm products too, on both Hypertherm and Miller units...I can tell you there isn't a whole lot of practical difference, in terms of cutting and in consumable lifespan. Your tests are in tightly controlled conditions that FAVOR the way your consumables were meant to be used. I don't see much information you put out from independent sources. From MY experience, before Everlast and with Everlast, the small percentage or so difference that exists (and yes you haven't seen the latest products apparently) a person pays a lot more for the US product without significant gain.
You can say they are "copies", but Trafimet, who we use, has their own patents on the products that would seem to indicate otherwise. From your specs and the performance I have seen, you are playing with numbers. A hypertherm 45, has 45 amps, but it puts out more voltage, so the total wattage is the same or greater than our products.
Don't see you supporting places like this very much, and you only input when there is a Hypertherm name used. Most of your posts are in regards to Hypertherm only, as an unpaid infomercial. With a budget like Hypertherm's, you'd expect a little more.
As far as outdated, heres a video of an older PP 60 cutting various material with the older style torch, before the "newer" consumables were available. (Just because they look the same, doesn't mean they are). Yes, there is dross, a little, but nothing major. Notice on that the parts "drop" when the cut is complete. If there is a lot of slag, the parts won't drop. And this is a unit from 2009.
YouTube - everlastgenerator's Channel
Here's a newer video of the New PP 60 (regular HF version, there are 2 now, one specifically for CNC and this is the one, but oh, well) from a customer. No CNC torch, though we do sell them with the full CNC ready unit with a compatible start system. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kR8qonq68VA
You can say they are "copies", but Trafimet, who we use, has their own patents on the products that would seem to indicate otherwise. From your specs and the performance I have seen, you are playing with numbers. A hypertherm 45, has 45 amps, but it puts out more voltage, so the total wattage is the same or greater than our products.
Don't see you supporting places like this very much, and you only input when there is a Hypertherm name used. Most of your posts are in regards to Hypertherm only, as an unpaid infomercial. With a budget like Hypertherm's, you'd expect a little more.
As far as outdated, heres a video of an older PP 60 cutting various material with the older style torch, before the "newer" consumables were available. (Just because they look the same, doesn't mean they are). Yes, there is dross, a little, but nothing major. Notice on that the parts "drop" when the cut is complete. If there is a lot of slag, the parts won't drop. And this is a unit from 2009.
YouTube - everlastgenerator's Channel
Here's a newer video of the New PP 60 (regular HF version, there are 2 now, one specifically for CNC and this is the one, but oh, well) from a customer. No CNC torch, though we do sell them with the full CNC ready unit with a compatible start system. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kR8qonq68VA
jimcolt
Gold Member
Sorry Mark....certainly did not mean to offend you....you may notice that I did not mention your company name....rather I refer to imports in general. If you have better or different technology, then your products may be the exception!
The Trafimet torches are italian torches....not proibably made by the same company that builds your power supplies...that are essentially copies of our first blowback torches produced in the mid 1980's. Hypertherm has engineered and developed about 6 major torch design iterations since that first blowback development....and have over 75 patents in those areas. Our torches are designed to work with the current/voltage and air pressure timing considerations of each power supply for optimum consumable life.
The materials used in consumables are one factor that affects life....the design which utilizes advanced physics to produce high arc energy density....while efficiently cooling the anode and cathode (nozzle and electrode) are far more important. Using old technology in the consumable designs will not get you a consumable life advantage.
Attached are pictures of some thick parts cut with a Powermax45 at 45 amps. We will put it beside most 60 amp units in regards to thickness and speed and generally win. We don't lose any comparisons regarding consumable life!
1st pic is two pieces of 3/4' stacked up for 1-1/2", the second is a piece of 1/2" and 3/4" stacked for 1-1/4". This cut is done with an edge start as the max pierce capacity is rated at 1/2" (conservatively....I have done 5/8"). Not too bad for a machine that is factory rated at 1" severance thickness....kind of shows that it will do what it is sold to do...and a considerable bit more. If you need to cut a lot of materials this thick you should be looking at plasma systems with 100 amps or more....however the occasional cut is ok.
Mark is correct on the voltage issue. It takes killowatts to cut steel....more killowatts to cut thicker. Most plasma systems are sold by their amperage rating. The kW output is determined by multiplying the load amperage x the load voltage. These systems could be compared more fairly if they were sold with a kW rating.
Thanks for the advice on the advertising on this site. I post to sites on my own volition. I do work for Hypertherm...but the two cnc machines and 4 plasma systems in my garage are mine...not Hypertherm's. Usually I jump on this site as I own a Kuboto L4310 as well as a Kubota RTV900....and I am looking for either technical know how, or am looking for advice on attachments for them....a great site!
You will see my posts on a dozen other sites helping people with a variety of different branded plasma systems understand the process and improve their cutting. I will pass the info for this site on to our PR people to see if they are interested in sponsoring.
Jim
The Trafimet torches are italian torches....not proibably made by the same company that builds your power supplies...that are essentially copies of our first blowback torches produced in the mid 1980's. Hypertherm has engineered and developed about 6 major torch design iterations since that first blowback development....and have over 75 patents in those areas. Our torches are designed to work with the current/voltage and air pressure timing considerations of each power supply for optimum consumable life.
The materials used in consumables are one factor that affects life....the design which utilizes advanced physics to produce high arc energy density....while efficiently cooling the anode and cathode (nozzle and electrode) are far more important. Using old technology in the consumable designs will not get you a consumable life advantage.
Attached are pictures of some thick parts cut with a Powermax45 at 45 amps. We will put it beside most 60 amp units in regards to thickness and speed and generally win. We don't lose any comparisons regarding consumable life!
1st pic is two pieces of 3/4' stacked up for 1-1/2", the second is a piece of 1/2" and 3/4" stacked for 1-1/4". This cut is done with an edge start as the max pierce capacity is rated at 1/2" (conservatively....I have done 5/8"). Not too bad for a machine that is factory rated at 1" severance thickness....kind of shows that it will do what it is sold to do...and a considerable bit more. If you need to cut a lot of materials this thick you should be looking at plasma systems with 100 amps or more....however the occasional cut is ok.
Mark is correct on the voltage issue. It takes killowatts to cut steel....more killowatts to cut thicker. Most plasma systems are sold by their amperage rating. The kW output is determined by multiplying the load amperage x the load voltage. These systems could be compared more fairly if they were sold with a kW rating.
Thanks for the advice on the advertising on this site. I post to sites on my own volition. I do work for Hypertherm...but the two cnc machines and 4 plasma systems in my garage are mine...not Hypertherm's. Usually I jump on this site as I own a Kuboto L4310 as well as a Kubota RTV900....and I am looking for either technical know how, or am looking for advice on attachments for them....a great site!
You will see my posts on a dozen other sites helping people with a variety of different branded plasma systems understand the process and improve their cutting. I will pass the info for this site on to our PR people to see if they are interested in sponsoring.
Jim
Attachments
Last edited:
RedMahindra
Bronze Member
I have had both Chinese Plasma cutter and now a Hypertherm. As far as I am concerned I will not buy any of the Chinese brand machines. Hypertherm is a much better machine "period!".
- Joined
- Feb 21, 2003
- Messages
- 26,300
- Location
- SE Michigan in the middle of nowhere
- Tractor
- Kubota M9000 HDCC3 M9000 HDC
