Largest welder for #10 wire

[grsthegreat]

My problem here is that I do not know enough about what is proper. For instance, can I use a 50 amp breaker on #10 wire? Someone here did but I would never had guessed it as appropriate with all the warnings I've heard about undersizing wiring with a larger breaker. The irony here is that I've been around welders my entire life. Its just that I never was the one fixing something on a skidder or excavator so I never paid much attention. Plus, these were massive welders on a truck driven by also large generators. That is why I needed someone with experience to say "get this and you'll be ok to do what you want" For the welding I have done and for the welders I've used. I am not a fan of ac welding. 7014 rod makes ac a lot easier for me but even a friends 220 volt Hobart stick with 6011's still stuck rods. Never welded with dc hence my query on inverters and hearing their loads are easier, thought they would fit the bill. As I said, don't know enough even going thru all the old posts in the welder section.

Legally...NO you cannot use a 50 amp breaker on #10 wire. At best #10 can handle 40 amps, But the NEC also stated that it cannot be fused greater than 30 amps by convention. When some people run a #10 to a 50 amp circuit there using a derate allowed for welders. However the 50 amp receptacle IS wired with #6 (or appropriate sized) wire to the 50 amp breaker. There using a short (not 50-70') extension cord of #10 to plug into the 50 amp receptacle.

Other factors come into affect with long runs of what is basically extension cord....namely voltage drop.

Buying a 50 foot run of heavier cord isn't really that expensive. I have a 50 foot run of #6 SO cord for my wiggle box, and boy it sure comes in handy.

 

[ultrarunner]

My problem here is that I do not know enough about what is proper. For instance, can I use a 50 amp breaker on #10 wire? Someone here did but I would never had guessed it as appropriate with all the warnings I've heard about undersizing wiring with a larger breaker. The irony here is that I've been around welders my entire life. Its just that I never was the one fixing something on a skidder or excavator so I never paid much attention. Plus, these were massive welders on a truck driven by also large generators. That is why I needed someone with experience to say "get this and you'll be ok to do what you want" For the welding I have done and for the welders I've used. I am not a fan of ac welding. 7014 rod makes ac a lot easier for me but even a friends 220 volt Hobart stick with 6011's still stuck rods. Never welded with dc hence my query on inverters and hearing their loads are easier, thought they would fit the bill. As I said, don't know enough even going thru all the old posts in the welder section.

Where I am the answer is a definitive no... Building Department requires number 8 wire for 30 amp dryer outlets... always has had this exception and it has caused delays in getting permits finalized...

Just like a neighbor city forbids the use of plastic drain pipes anywhere above ground... so, cast iron, galvanized or copper... most of the older homes have all copper DVW lines above ground... I have not priced 3" copper waste lines in a while... imagine they are costly.

 

[grsthegreat]

Just like a neighbor city forbids the use of plastic drain pipes anywhere above ground... so, cast iron, galvanized or copper... most of the older homes have all copper DVW lines above ground... I have not priced 3" copper waste lines in a while... imagine they are costly.

Thats cause in Calif, all that waste has to travel a long way.....all the way to Sacramento. Everyone knows all the waste there HAHA.
Sorry, i always have to berate Cakif...cause i used to live there. Their policies on small business are the reason i moved out.

 

[ultrarunner]

Thats cause in Calif, all that waste has to travel a long way.....all the way to Sacramento. Everyone knows all the waste there HAHA.
Sorry, i always have to berate Cakif...cause i used to live there. Their policies on small business are the reason i moved out.

That's OK... I'm use to it and there is a lot of truth about it too.

Seems every jurisdiction has their quirks... even with national codes.

It is very hard for a little guy to get going if you happen to be inside the city limits... especially any type of manufacturing is just about impossible...

I've still got the better part of a spool of number 8 from when I was putting in dryer circuits... I'm sure even at half the roll, it is still worth more than I paid for it back in the 80's...

 

[pat32rf]

Up here we power our dryers with #10, fused at 30amps. Same size wire and fuses that I have used on my Lincoln 225 buzz box for the past 40 years.
I have blown the odd fuse in that time, but no more than 6 or so.....
Spent the first 25 years of that time as an electrician working for the Canadian Lincoln distributor...

 

[rankrank1]

...However the 50 amp receptacle IS wired with #6 (or appropriate sized) wire to the 50 amp breaker. There using a short (not 50-70') extension cord of #10 to plug into the 50 amp receptacle.

This statement is incorrect. While this may actually be the best way to do it, NEC (i.e. National Electric Code) does allow a 50 amp breaker on undersized wire on #10 wire straight to the breaker for welders only. The duty cycle of the welder will determine permissible undersize on the wire(there is a formula for sizing the wire in the code book). There is a list of criteria that must be met like the breaker being clearly marked as well as the receptacle being clearly marked, etc. In short, It is critical that nothing else gets plugged into this circuit except the welder. You would think code would mandate a hard wire scenario to prevent something else getting plugged in, but it does NOT.

As mentioned in my first post, Your good out to 95' on #10 wire as per Lincoln manual before you have to worry about voltage loss.

None of the welders that I mentioned earlier will pull 50 amps anyway even at wide open setting. The manufacturers only recommend the 50 amp breaker to prevent breaker trips on the initial brief surges that occur when first striking an arc. I have mine wired on a 40 amp breaker and #10 wire at 100' and have never tripped a breaker at any setting. I have run both a Lincoln AC225 or a Miller Thunderbolt AC225, (DC150) on this circuit without any issues. GRSthegreat has already even done the study to show what the welder actually pulls in regards to amps in the 35 amp range. Look at the cords that come on these welders - most have a #12 cord.

That all said if I was running a new circuit I would buy #6 wire that is suitable for the 50 amp breaker for a 100% duty cycle so you could use the circuit for other applications like an air compressor or plasma cutter. But if some older wire is already there then might as well put it to use if code allows it if it can safely work for your application - assuming you only need to power the welder.

 

[arrow]

This statement is incorrect. While this may actually be the best way to do it, NEC (i.e. National Electric Code) does allow a 50 amp breaker on undersized wire on #10 wire straight to the breaker for welders only. The duty cycle of the welder will determine permissible undersize on the wire(there is a formula for sizing the wire in the code book). There is a list of criteria that must be met like the breaker being clearly marked as well as the receptacle being clearly marked, etc. In short, It is critical that nothing else gets plugged into this circuit except the welder. You would think code would mandate a hard wire scenario to prevent something else getting plugged in, but it does NOT.

As mentioned in my first post, Your good out to 95' on #10 wire as per Lincoln manual before you have to worry about voltage loss.

None of the welders that I mentioned earlier will pull 50 amps anyway even at wide open setting. The manufacturers only recommend the 50 amp breaker to prevent breaker trips on the initial brief surges that occur when first striking an arc. I have mine wired on a 40 amp breaker and #10 wire at 100' and have never tripped a breaker at any setting. I have run both a Lincoln AC225 or a Miller Thunderbolt AC225, (DC150) on this circuit without any issues. GRSthegreat has already even done the study to show what the welder actually pulls in regards to amps in the 35 amp range. Look at the cords that come on these welders - most have a #12 cord.

That all said if I was running a new circuit I would buy #6 wire that is suitable for the 50 amp breaker for a 100% duty cycle so you could use the circuit for other applications like an air compressor or plasma cutter. But if some older wire is already there then might as well put it to use if code allows it if it can safely work for your application - assuming you only need to power the welder.

Ok then . I will split the difference and install a 40 amp breaker for an inverter 200 amp dc welder. Whether I pull 200 amps on #10 wire I do not know but since the #10 wire is already there and buried, it will be considered a go. Thanks to all who contributed to my sparse knowledge base on welders.

 

[rankrank1]

Ok then . I will split the difference and install a 40 amp breaker for an inverter 200 amp dc welder. Whether I pull 200 amps on #10 wire I do not know but since the #10 wire is already there and buried, it will be considered a go. Thanks to all who contributed to my sparse knowledge base on welders.

Well that may or may not be okay. It will depend on the inverter you go with (just like it does with the transformer based welders). A Lincoln AC225 (DC125), Miller Thunderbolt AC225 (DC150), Hobart Stickmate AC225 (DC160) all are transformer based welders that will work on the undersized #10 wire and the oversized breaker and be code compliant. However if you upsized the welder to say a Lincoln Idealarc or a Miller Dialarc then it would not be okay as they draw more amps and have much higher duty cycles so they can run longer at settings that are drawing more than 30 amps.

You will need to pick an inverter that fits the NEC formula for permissble undersize on the wire. If it always draws less than 30 amps then you are okay (Remeber your #10 wire is suitable for 30 amp continuous loads). At areas where the draw is above 30 amps then the duty cycle needs to be relatively low like say 20%-30% - again refer to the formula.

Lastly, It has been touched on, but is this #10 wire in the wall feeding any other branch circuits? If yes, then you can NOT oversize the breaker (it is limited to 30 amps max). If it is only going to feed the welder is the only time the breaker can be oversized and then there are steps that clearly must be taken.

I would strongly recommend you hire a professional electrician as electricity kills if you do not fully understand it - and all your replys suggest that you do not even remotely understand it.

 

[arrow]

Well that may or may not be okay. It will depend on the inverter you go with (just like it does with the transformer based welders). A Lincoln AC225 (DC125), Miller Thunderbolt AC225 (DC150), Hobart Stickmate AC225 (DC160) all are transformer based welders that will work on the undersized #10 wire and the oversized breaker and be code compliant. However if you upsized the welder to say a Lincoln Idealarc or a Miller Dialarc then it would not be okay as they draw more amps and have much higher duty cycles so they can run longer at settings that are drawing more than 30 amps.

You will need to pick an inverter that fits the NEC formula for permissble undersize on the wire. If it always draws less than 30 amps then you are okay (Remeber your #10 wire is suitable for 30 amp continuous loads). At areas where the draw is above 30 amps then the duty cycle needs to be relatively low like say 20%-30% - again refer to the formula.

Lastly, It has been touched on, but is this #10 wire in the wall feeding any other branch circuits? If yes, then you can NOT oversize the breaker (it is limited to 30 amps max). If it is only going to feed the welder is the only time the breaker can be oversized and then there are steps that clearly must be taken.

I would strongly recommend you hire a professional electrician as electricity kills if you do not fully understand it - and all your replys suggest that you do not even remotely understand it.

Nope, I can't say I do not have even a remote knowledge of electricity. I can say that I have an ignorance to welders that mitigates my direct involvement with installation of ancillary items for execution ( I had to use that word) of welder operation. Allow me to thank you for a clear and concise explanation of welder draw. Yes, the welder will be on a newly installed breaker simply feeding it.
but the #10 wire is branched at the breaker box feeding lights and sockets and as a result, if I have read you properly, I am restricted to a strictly 30 amp breaker and thus a welder that will not draw more than that at any part of its operation including start up.

 

[dstig1]

I think there is a much better solution. Remove or cut off the 10ga wire and re-pull the run for a 60A or 100 A subpanel. Then you are good for life. One time deal that will make your garage much more useful. And since you are unsure about this, hire an electrician.

Then you can do whatever you need.

They can pull wire with a vibrating knife or even use the tunneling equipment if you have driveway or something in the way. Do it right, do it once.