Anyone else holding out for new 2013 Chevy/GMC truck?

[Diamondpilot]

Going by your links Ford got a loan under a DOE program, which several other auto companies got including GM and Toyota. I already knew about this, the program was started before the bailouts. That isn't a bailout, as I said before if it was loans to GM, no one would care. Ford didn't walk away from it's debt, GM did. That is the part that has many people including myself upset at GM. GM was treated different than any company in the history of our country. They were allowed to walk away with very little in terms of sacrifice. The people who made the sacrifice were the stock holders and the people who held GM's bonds and of course the US tax payer.

As I said before GM should have been auctioned off and the bond holders at least should have been covered. Instead the government did something it has never done before.


Now we want to change the meaning of bailout, or to lump loans into bailout? Kinda like "It depends on what the meaning of the words 'is' is".

Well said. Glad someone else can see the light. :thumbsup:

I really could care less what someone buys or if I change anyone's mind but me and my family have studied this thoroughly and would feel the same way about Ford or any other company if it happened differently. My BIL was a life long GM man, not anymore. I never really cared for GM trucks but did own a few but had really overall good service out of GM cars. Not great but acceptable but I will not touch one again.

GM is not done with its troubles. The bailout was just a band-aid to stop the bleeding.

I really do hope they make it. Chrysler/Dodge is not on the same level as GM and Ford when it comes to volume. Without GM strong Ford will be allowed to slip. Competition is good. I just wish there was some more in the form of Toyota, Nissan, and who ever else wanted to jump in the Diesel 3/4 ton market and up.

Chris

 

[deerefan]

Well said. Glad someone else can see the light. :thumbsup:

I really could care less what someone buys or if I change anyone's mind but me and my family have studied this thoroughly and would feel the same way about Ford or any other company if it happened differently. My BIL was a life long GM man, not anymore. I never really cared for GM trucks but did own a few but had really overall good service out of GM cars. Not great but acceptable but I will not touch one again.

GM is not done with its troubles. The bailout was just a band-aid to stop the bleeding.

I really do hope they make it. Chrysler/Dodge is not on the same level as GM and Ford when it comes to volume. Without GM strong Ford will be allowed to slip. Competition is good. I just wish there was some more in the form of Toyota, Nissan, and who ever else wanted to jump in the Diesel 3/4 ton market and up.

Chris

Everyone needs to accept the fact that no matter what path GM took, everyone was going to be angry. Going out of business, all your friends are unemployed, hence ticked. Take taxpayer money, taxpayers angry. It was and is a no win situation for GM. One thing I do know, when I buy GM, I am keeping friends and aquaintances, people I've never met, employed which in turn benefits the economy. If it all goes down the toilet, at least I can say I did my part, and then some, instead of turning my back and pointing fingers. People, remember, hard workers like you and me, are on the receiving end of this. Money has no heartbeat or feelings and is just as comfortable in someone else's wallett as it is yours. People, well I do not need to explain...

 

[JasG]

I don't disagree with you...Ford mortgaged themselves to the hilt when the credit markets were open...When GM needed to do the same, the markets were locked and closed....If Ford could borrow on the open market, why did they go to the governement?...Because the markets were still somewhat frozen...There is a parallel here. Not the same, but I hope you get my drift.

If Ford hadn't borrowed all of the money that they did, when they did..They would have been in exactly the same boat.

I don't like government intervention in any industry as the strings attatched become tow-chains...GM learned this one the hard way.

I am in no way defending any of the 2008-2009 goverment interventions...But looking back, it did moderate, not fix, a cascading catastophe...

I guess were going to have to agree to disagree on this.

In answer to you question.
The DOE gave low interest loans to all the auto companies who wanted them. If the government is loaning money at a lower interest rate than the open market why wouldn't they go to the government? If that is what saved Ford so be it.

Again the difference for me between the 2 is Ford is paying it's debt, GM didn't. Ford is not in the same boat due to they for now have there retirement under control GM doesn't. Ford didn't screw it's investors and creditors GM did. If GM just needed loans, why didn't they ask for them?

As far as the cascading catastophe I don't buy that either. That was propaganda by the UAW. Had GM been allowed to fail someone would have bought the assets and someone would be making cars. Or it might even have been GM, just the unions would have been at the back of the line instead of the front of the line. That would have been the best thing for GM. They they could have gotten all the cost under control. Instead what changed?

You keep saying there going to pay back the money. They are only going to pay back certain loans. The bonds holders are going to get pennies on the dollar, former stock holders, nothing, and the government looks like it's going to lose on the stock it owns. So the bailout was exactly that.. a baliout. Ford at this point and time is taking loans and making payments.

What about all the dealers that lost their franchinse? They bought and paid for that, they get nothing also.

In other words many people where done real harm by this. GM and it's union walked away scott free. They are still doing the same things that got them into this boat in the 1st place. So then what, we bail them out again?

 

[timswi]

I guess were going to have to agree to disagree on this.

In answer to you question.
The DOE gave low interest loans to all the auto companies who wanted them. If the government is loaning money at a lower interest rate than the open market why wouldn't they go to the government? If that is what saved Ford so be it.

Again the difference for me between the 2 is Ford is paying it's debt, GM didn't. Ford is not in the same boat due to they for now have there retirement under control GM doesn't. Ford didn't screw it's investors and creditors GM did. If GM just needed loans, why didn't they ask for them?

As far as the cascading catastophe I don't buy that either. That was propaganda by the UAW. Had GM been allowed to fail someone would have bought the assets and someone would be making cars. Or it might even have been GM, just the unions would have been at the back of the line instead of the front of the line. That would have been the best thing for GM. They they could have gotten all the cost under control. Instead what changed?

You keep saying there going to pay back the money. They are only going to pay back certain loans. The bonds holders are going to get pennies on the dollar, former stock holders, nothing, and the government looks like it's going to lose on the stock it owns. So the bailout was exactly that.. a baliout. Ford at this point and time is taking loans and making payments.

What about all the dealers that lost their franchinse? They bought and paid for that, they get nothing also.

In other words many people where done real harm by this. GM and it's union walked away scott free. They are still doing the same things that got them into this boat in the 1st place. So then what, we bail them out again?

We don't disagree as much as you think we do...The cascading stuff I was referring to was the economy as a whole, not just GM.

 

[JasG]

We don't disagree as much as you think we do...The cascading stuff I was referring to was the economy as a whole, not just GM.

I understood that was what you were referring to. The UAW was claiming that it would do harm because of all the parts suppliers etc would be affected. That this would mean huge job losses well beyond what the GM failing would do. 20-30 years ago I would have agreed with that even if we didn't have the housing and credit issues.

I didn't buy it then for several reasons at the time. Like I said, someone would be making cars here, maybe even GM. Many of the cars sold here are now made here. Toyota, Kia, VW, Honda, BMW, Nissan, Hyundia, Dalmier Benz etc. All of these companies build cars right here in the USA. I think all but BMW and Dalmier have design, R & D and test places here in the States. BMW and Dalimer may very well also, I just don't know.

The demand for cars would be what ever it is. These companies would be building cars and they use the same suppliers that GM uses in many cases. So the whole cascade I don't think would have happened.

Had the GM been a normal bankruptcy they might have still been able to build cars. It's just it probably would have been the death blow to the UAW. If GM wasn't making cars someone would have filled the void, here in the US. If GM had been normal, I think they would have been stronger.

I also came across this today on my home page.
UAW takes aim at foreign automakers - Business - Autos - msnbc.com

See the problem with the large unions is they have become about the union and not the workers. If they don't continue to expand the unions base, they will fail. They want to put on a big push to get into the non-union auto plants. They have been doing this for 15 years or more. So far they haven't gotten 1 non-union plant to convert.

I understand why people would think they UAW was right. I'm just explaining why I didn't and it was a waste of money and sets a bad example.

 

[timswi]

I understood that was what you were referring to. The UAW was claiming that it would do harm because of all the parts suppliers etc would be affected. That this would mean huge job losses well beyond what the GM failing would do. 20-30 years ago I would have agreed with that even if we didn't have the housing and credit issues.

I didn't buy it then for several reasons at the time. Like I said, someone would be making cars here, maybe even GM. Many of the cars sold here are now made here. Toyota, Kia, VW, Honda, BMW, Nissan, Hyundia, Dalmier Benz etc. All of these companies build cars right here in the USA. I think all but BMW and Dalmier have design, R & D and test places here in the States. BMW and Dalimer may very well also, I just don't know.

The demand for cars would be what ever it is. These companies would be building cars and they use the same suppliers that GM uses in many cases. So the whole cascade I don't think would have happened.

Had the GM been a normal bankruptcy they might have still been able to build cars. It's just it probably would have been the death blow to the UAW. If GM wasn't making cars someone would have filled the void, here in the US. If GM had been normal, I think they would have been stronger.

I also came across this today on my home page.
UAW takes aim at foreign automakers - Business - Autos - msnbc.com

See the problem with the large unions is they have become about the union and not the workers. If they don't continue to expand the unions base, they will fail. They want to put on a big push to get into the non-union auto plants. They have been doing this for 15 years or more. So far they haven't gotten 1 non-union plant to convert.

I understand why people would think they UAW was right. I'm just explaining why I didn't and it was a waste of money and sets a bad example.

I don't disagree one bit that this was about bailing the UAW out...I'm trying to stay away from that one, it never ends well unfortunately...Just tying to stay on the bigger picture...And after the fact.

 

[glc24]

You guys should start another thread.
This thing went south big time.

Greg

 

[WilliamBos]

You guys should start another thread.
This thing went south big time.

Greg

Guys, please start another thread for this.

I agree. I look forward to the next gen of trucks. I always buy 1 gen behind, 04 in 07. Will probably get an 11 HD or so next.

 

[Martian]

This thread started on ripping on that prototype then to government motors then how good of vehicles gm makes now its back to government motors. People do stupid things but lets either drop it or let it go. Let's stop hating on everyone:thumbsup:

 

[WilliamBos]

This thread started on ripping on that prototype then to government motors then how good of vehicles gm makes now its back to government motors. People do stupid things but lets either drop it or let it go. Let's stop hating on everyone:thumbsup:

i agree! the dually in your avatar, got more pics? i want one...