I'm at the thinking about heating stage of my barn build...

[mx842]

We have in floor heat and love it. There is some heat loss at the doors and where the pad extends past the doors but it isn't bad. The efficiency of the system more than makes up for any of that loss. I didn't see where you are located but around here we have to worry about frost heave. we poured a continuous footed slap in one pour. dug a 4in by 48in trench for the footing and just poored it with the slab, foam board under the slab part. Never thought about mice getting underneath there but I would assume that they wouldn't make it 4 ft down.

Thanks.....I'm in VA. The floor I want to pour is in my new pole barn shop so there is no foundation just piers. What I was wondering about is if you place a piece of 2" foam board around the outside edge of the pad that seems like quite a space that will be exposed to the elements of the inside of the shop area. I mean, a 2" gap from the wall to the concrete just looks like a good place for problems because a lot of stuff like some cleaners, gas, and the like will eat this stuff like candy. I guess I could build the interior walls so that the bottom plate would cover this gap to give it some protection and block most mice. I was just wondering how you guys did your side wall insulation and how it turned out.

 

[mx842]

I have it at least started. like others mentioned keeping cold out of the floor coming up from underneath is #1. My barn has been up a pretty long time see build up photos here all way through coating the floor with Rustolium stain which I HATE did not penetrate and the sealer wrinkels up with about ANY kind of liquid cleaner or oil product on it.


BARN photos pictures by WPSPIKER - Photobucket

putting in some foam also used the foam radiant barrier (foil Bubble bubble and poly) then added a 2nd layer of foam. all of the foam and foil poly was taped up the seams as well as a poly 4 mil plastic vapor barrier on the bottom prior to the foam. I have treated 2x8 T&G skirt boards going 3 or 4 deep under ground as well as have foam on inside and outside of the skirt boards as well. tile around the outside of the barn for drainage (important for keeping frost heave away.) Keep the barn floor dry will also help keep critters out from under it all bugs and mice like moist soil which will hold its form and be easier to dig through.

Prior to putting in the slab I dug in all my utilities Water Sewer Elec. Service, Outside wood boiler heat tube and I added 2 spare 4" tile so I can later add Gas or Power or? up through the slab.

The mice & rat issues can be contained with a outside barn cat or two. ALso keep a well mowed green space around the barn/house which will force them to be exposed when retrieving food.

Mark

Thanks, That looks like a job well done. That looks like the plastic gas tube that you used for your piping, was that better than pex tube? I would assume that the pex would be cheaper so is there a reason you went that way?

We have a bad mice problem around here even with a cat or two. I think that is because of the nearby farms and the amount of dodo they have laying around. I hauled in load after load of horse manure to build up my garden spot and the next year I had all sorts of creepy crawlers all over the place and shortly after that the moles showed up then the voles and field mice would use the holes the moles would dig looking for bugs and grubs. I'll bet I spent like a bazillion bucks trying to kill off the grubs because they say if you get rid of them the moles will go elsewhere and also the voles and other mice. Also I have a big wood pile that mice love to get in so the cats can't get at them. I catch every black snake I can find and turn them loose in the wood pile and even they can't eat them fast as they multiply. I've tried smoke bombs, the old exhaust pipe in the mole hole trick, mole knots, Decon, even gas, and 'fire in the hole' but all that did was set my little took shed on fire that was 30' away.:laughing:

I'll probably dig down about a foot around the outside edge of the barn and fill it with concrete and hope for the best when I get the money to pour the floor.

 

[tommu56]

some reading on insulation

Radiant Heat From Radiant Floor Company The Slab on Grade Installation

another one

http://www.greenbuildingtalk.com/Forums/tabid/53/aff/12/aft/27075/afv/topic/Default.aspx

 

[srs]

it is just so they cant get up in the wall not under the slab

tom

ok, thank you!

 

[raasd]

Thanks.....I'm in VA. The floor I want to pour is in my new pole barn shop so there is no foundation just piers. What I was wondering about is if you place a piece of 2" foam board around the outside edge of the pad that seems like quite a space that will be exposed to the elements of the inside of the shop area. I mean, a 2" gap from the wall to the concrete just looks like a good place for problems because a lot of stuff like some cleaners, gas, and the like will eat this stuff like candy. I guess I could build the interior walls so that the bottom plate would cover this gap to give it some protection and block most mice. I was just wondering how you guys did your side wall insulation and how it turned out.

Ours is post style construction too, we just bolted the posts(glue lam beam from 3 2X6's) directly to the slab. Morton is starting to do alot of buildings this way, we stole the idea from them. Didn't need to use treated posts and no chance of rot.

 

[SPIKER]

Thanks, That looks like a job well done. That looks like the plastic gas tube that you used for your piping, was that better than pex tube? I would assume that the pex would be cheaper so is there a reason you went that way?

We have a bad mice problem around here even with a cat or two. I think that is because of the nearby farms and the amount of dodo they have laying around. I hauled in load after load of horse manure to build up my garden spot and the next year I had all sorts of creepy crawlers all over the place and shortly after that the moles showed up then the voles and field mice would use the holes the moles would dig looking for bugs and grubs. I'll bet I spent like a bazillion bucks trying to kill off the grubs because they say if you get rid of them the moles will go elsewhere and also the voles and other mice. Also I have a big wood pile that mice love to get in so the cats can't get at them. I catch every black snake I can find and turn them loose in the wood pile and even they can't eat them fast as they multiply. I've tried smoke bombs, the old exhaust pipe in the mole hole trick, mole knots, Decon, even gas, and 'fire in the hole' but all that did was set my little took shed on fire that was 30' away.:laughing:

I'll probably dig down about a foot around the outside edge of the barn and fill it with concrete and hope for the best when I get the money to pour the floor.

The tube is Orange which is PEX-AL-PEX that is a Oxygen Barrier which is rather ridged compared to PEX only. The Aluminum stopO2 from getting into the system in a closed loop pressurized systems that contain steel/cast that will rust with the O2 exposure.


Non pressurized systems have to have a lot of chemicals in balance to keep it from rusting.

Also the PEX-A-PEX is a lot more damage mouse resistant which I have to keep mind of as well. I wont get a chance of finishing it off until maybe next year $ is always an issue as well as time...

for my roll up door I have a barrier under ground as well as up in the concrete 3/4 and right at the inner to outer slab it 100% separate using the concrete felt

mark

 

[mx842]

The tube is Orange which is PEX-AL-PEX that is a Oxygen Barrier which is rather ridged compared to PEX only. The Aluminum stopO2 from getting into the system in a closed loop pressurized systems that contain steel/cast that will rust with the O2 exposure.


Non pressurized systems have to have a lot of chemicals in balance to keep it from rusting.

Also the PEX-A-PEX is a lot more damage mouse resistant which I have to keep mind of as well. I wont get a chance of finishing it off until maybe next year $ is always an issue as well as time...

for my roll up door I have a barrier under ground as well as up in the concrete 3/4 and right at the inner to outer slab it 100% separate using the concrete felt

mark

You mean you used the black felt like material they use for expansion joints as insulating material at the big door? I have become very scared of that stuff especially slab floors because it will deteriorate over time and leave a gap around the walls. That's what happened to my garage floor it just rotted away leaving a nice roadway for bugs and mice.

I will probably have to go with regular pex because of the price unless I win the lotto in the next couple months.:laughing:

 

[SPIKER]

You mean you used the black felt like material they use for expansion joints as insulating material at the big door? I have become very scared of that stuff especially slab floors because it will deteriorate over time and leave a gap around the walls. That's what happened to my garage floor it just rotted away leaving a nice roadway for bugs and mice.

I will probably have to go with regular pex because of the price unless I win the lotto in the next couple months.:laughing:

here is the roll up door opening it is hard to see there is a treated 2x6 buried and wrapped with "Radiant Barrier (foil bubble bubble poly") and has 2" styrofoam in behind it as an additional insulation. the 2x4 seen at height was put in temporarily and used to screed the inside to height.



click the photo to see the video.

that 2x4 was pulled out just shortly after the video was shot and the black non-rotting type of plastic/felt type stuff was put in as was the wire mesh that was not shown. it was a quick scramble to get that in as we had it all out to drive trucks into door for the pour. We slipped in the fiber stuff against the 2x4 & poured up against them pulled the 2x4 leaving the mesh.

PEX-AL-PEX was the least expensive part, I bought mine through FarmTech and was 24cents a foot a few years back when you bought it by the 1000 feet spools. I bought 2 knowing I would have extra that I will use for above slab use. It is stiff but you can bend it easy into a 12" radius or less if you are careful or use a little heat from a heat gun you can bend it pretty tight without it collapsing like standard PEX will

Mark

 

[5030]

Got mine from Farmtek too.... Menards is cheaper. You want oxygen barrier PEX, brand don't matter much.

I heat a 20 x 20 90,000 pound slab of high tensle concrete, 8 " thick in a post type structure with a 30 gallon water heater running straight propolyene glycol (RV antifreeze), a Califfi distribution manifold (for the zones and a Taco pump wired to a Honeywell remote sensing thermostat with the sensing bulb in a thermowell in the slab.

The slab actually keeps the adjacent building warm through convection. My floor temperature is maintained at 73 degrees. Ambient air temperature stays around 60.

Tamped sand, 6" of pink expanded insulation baord underneath and on thr sides. My cats sleep on the apron in front of the garage door which stays warm all winter as well.

Best heat investement I ever made. Beats overhead forced air furnace hands down.

Warm feet are better than anything else. Very comfortable and it don't sweat in the spring like normal concrete does....

PEX is really do-it-yourself so lone as you have a bit of common sense, something that it appears is lacking in people today......

 

[mx842]

here is the roll up door opening it is hard to see there is a treated 2x6 buried and wrapped with "Radiant Barrier (foil bubble bubble poly") and has 2" styrofoam in behind it as an additional insulation. the 2x4 seen at height was put in temporarily and used to screed the inside to height.



click the photo to see the video.

that 2x4 was pulled out just shortly after the video was shot and the black non-rotting type of plastic/felt type stuff was put in as was the wire mesh that was not shown. it was a quick scramble to get that in as we had it all out to drive trucks into door for the pour. We slipped in the fiber stuff against the 2x4 & poured up against them pulled the 2x4 leaving the mesh.

PEX-AL-PEX was the least expensive part, I bought mine through FarmTech and was 24cents a foot a few years back when you bought it by the 1000 feet spools. I bought 2 knowing I would have extra that I will use for above slab use. It is stiff but you can bend it easy into a 12" radius or less if you are careful or use a little heat from a heat gun you can bend it pretty tight without it collapsing like standard PEX will

Mark

24 cent's! dang that seems cheap, I was looking at one of the links tommu56 posted and they had it at almost 80 cents a foot for the 7/8" stuff. I have been thinking about using the regular 3/4 Pex tubing because my budget need's all the help it can get.

What was the sq footage of your floor and how many feet of pex did you lay down? Yesterday It was so cold and windy outside I stayed in most of the day and drew up some pipping models for the floor plan I have and I think I can do my whole floor with 1 zone, with 6 loops of around 250 feet each.

Looking at it on paper is one thing and the real thing is much different though. Is there a formula that will tell you how much tubing you need per sq foot of floor space? I know there are a lot of factors that need to be factored in, like insulation used, heat loss, area you are in, and other things but there should be some basic rule of thumb you could go by to get an idea of what you are looking at.

From what I have been reading it seems fairly easy to do and it seems to be cost effective compared to other types of heat. Cold used to not bother me but now I must be getting soft because the cold is just not as appealing to me as it once was.

Oh and the stuff they used was supposed to be the right stuff but I have doubts that it was. It was probably the same stuff I saw at Lowes that was supposed to be the right stuff but is only that black fiber siding board cut in 4" strips.