I'm at the thinking about heating stage of my barn build...

[mx842]

Got mine from Farmtek too.... Menards is cheaper. You want oxygen barrier PEX, brand don't matter much.

I heat a 20 x 20 90,000 pound slab of high tensle concrete, 8 " thick in a post type structure with a 30 gallon water heater running straight propolyene glycol (RV antifreeze), a Califfi distribution manifold (for the zones and a Taco pump wired to a Honeywell remote sensing thermostat with the sensing bulb in a thermowell in the slab.

The slab actually keeps the adjacent building warm through convection. My floor temperature is maintained at 73 degrees. Ambient air temperature stays around 60.

Tamped sand, 6" of pink expanded insulation baord underneath and on thr sides. My cats sleep on the apron in front of the garage door which stays warm all winter as well.

Best heat investement I ever made. Beats overhead forced air furnace hands down.

Warm feet are better than anything else. Very comfortable and it don't sweat in the spring like normal concrete does....

PEX is really do-it-yourself so lone as you have a bit of common sense, something that it appears is lacking in people today......

You used 6" of foam board under the slab? That sounds like a lot but I guess up north you need all you can get. Here the winters are not that brutal. Average winter temps around here are high 30's to mid 40's although we usually get a short blast of really cold weather that will hang around about a week and it will get down into the single digits but it's short lived.

I don't really need for the building to stay at bikini wearing temps if I could keep it in the mid 50's in winter I would be happy. I just mainly want to keep the stuff I keep inside from freezing and give me a place out of the wind to work on those cold days in Jan and Feb. Everything works better, tools, equipment, the chemicals I use, the powder and paints I use, when the temp of the building stays in a fairly consistent range, not to mention my tired old butt.

 

[SPIKER]

You can buy most all of your radiant floor products on-line here is where I got mine.

TekCoil™ Pex-B Oxygen Barrier Pipe w/ EVOH - FarmTek

For the runs 1/2" is good in run lengths less than 300 feet. 300' run is max per all info I found as water resistance in the tube will create too much back pressure on your pumps. For the runs there needs to be more tubing around outside and doors where insulation is worst or cold is worst. Generally tube every 6" for 18~24" from exterior walls and roll up doors then on 1 foot for through 4' from walls/doors and then every 24" on center. My place is 38X50 and it is broken down into 2 halves with the return (cool) tubes coming back towards the middle of the slab, the feed (hot) tubes going out around the outside of the building. In the photos you can see the feed/return lines and the insulation process in photos in the link back a page on photobucket as well as a few videos.

I bought 2 of the full spools 1000 or 1200ft ea.(Price in link above is .37cent for 1200' spool)

I bought one spool of 3/4" and made my own feed ( like this stuff http://www.farmtek.com/farm/supplie...52&productId=418033&pageId=ItemDetail&isDoc=N ) I have 2ea 3/4" feed & 2ea 3/4" return lines to a outside pad ~125' away I bought the 500' spool and cut it down. (Should have gotten 1" for these runs but will work due to extra insulation in the place when I'm done.) the 4 lines are tied together and wrapped with a 24" wide radiant insulation "foil bubble bubble foil" and I over wrapped that with 3" box tape Cellophane type stuff to keep the radiant insulation from getting tore up. I pulled that into 4" tile the non-perforated type. I dug a trench from inside my barn aout 70' from the barn or so and buried the tile/insulated PEX-AL-PEX and I added 2 ea runs of 3/4" Black Poly pipe into the tench for electric and water out to the remote pad.)

I also bought a lot of fittings from them back then, they have better fittings now though. I still need an outside wood boiler to go onto the Pad where that tubing comes up. I have this all put into a 1st floor wash-utility room that can be seen in the photos.

I ended up buying a WATTS PEX panel (not yet installed) for the Mix/Tempering/control with 5 zones. I needed all 5 zones and have 1 additional zone outside the lean too porch which may never get hooked up for heat.

like others said, Insulation in very important to keep the system running well. I will have a lot more wall insulation than typ. home garage as I have pole barn construction so close to 8" of insulation/air space and will also end up in next few years installing insulated siding.

edit in:
Insulation was a sandwich on my install, after level & compacting poly went down, then 3/4" Styrofoam with seams taped, then the Radiant insulation this stuff http://www.farmtek.com/farm/supplie...52&productId=427982&pageId=ItemDetail&isDoc=N then taped up all the seams in it and did the 3/4" t&g pink/blue 250PSI foam insulation then taped seams again and installed the wire mesh on 1" high chairs and installed tube onto the mesh which is 6x6 10awg. Wire Tied the tube to the wire mesh and makes measuring distance from walls ect easy as the 6" mesh...

The Radiant insulation stuff I bought 5 rolls with 1.75 rolls left over. I will install the left over stuff on the walls roof attic space when it comes. Cost break now is 4 rolls back then it was 5 but costs were a much better price break then buy 3 rolls was 1150 bucks buy 5 rolls it was like 1299 lol. So I opted for the extra with the future plans in mind. I used a good part of the .75 roll already on the walls in the utility room cut and stapled to the walls between studs after I installed 1.5" foam boards on the outside walls to take up the horizontal pole barn siding boards.


Mark

 

[5030]

You used 6" of foam board under the slab? That sounds like a lot but I guess up north you need all you can get. Here the winters are not that brutal. Average winter temps around here are high 30's to mid 40's although we usually get a short blast of really cold weather that will hang around about a week and it will get down into the single digits but it's short lived.

I don't really need for the building to stay at bikini wearing temps if I could keep it in the mid 50's in winter I would be happy. I just mainly want to keep the stuff I keep inside from freezing and give me a place out of the wind to work on those cold days in Jan and Feb. Everything works better, tools, equipment, the chemicals I use, the powder and paints I use, when the temp of the building stays in a fairly consistent range, not to mention my tired old butt.

It gets a lot colder for longer up here. It's single digits this week, all week. Besides, why skimp on fpam baord. It's cheap compared to the fuel usage over the life of the system. I considered excavating so I could have laid down 12" of foam baord but didn't.

keep in mind, with a PEX in floor heat system you heat the mass (in this case the concrete) to whatever temperature you require and then the system cycles to maintain that temperature. A hint that works for me.... I start my system in late august when the surrounding ground is still warm and the slab is warm. That way, you don't consume lots of fuel heating a cold slab.

 

[mx842]

You can buy most all of your radiant floor products on-line here is where I got mine.

TekCoil Pex-B Oxygen Barrier Pipe w/ EVOH - FarmTek

For the runs 1/2" is good in run lengths less than 300 feet. 300' run is max per all info I found as water resistance in the tube will create too much back pressure on your pumps. For the runs there needs to be more tubing around outside and doors where insulation is worst or cold is worst. Generally tube every 6" for 18~24" from exterior walls and roll up doors then on 1 foot for through 4' from walls/doors and then every 24" on center. My place is 38X50 and it is broken down into 2 halves with the return (cool) tubes coming back towards the middle of the slab, the feed (hot) tubes going out around the outside of the building. In the photos you can see the feed/return lines and the insulation process in photos in the link back a page on photobucket as well as a few videos.

I bought 2 of the full spools 1000 or 1200ft ea.(Price in link above is .37cent for 1200' spool)

I bought one spool of 3/4" and made my own feed ( like this stuff Thermal Barrier Underground Pipe - Per ft. - FarmTek ) I have 2ea 3/4" feed & 2ea 3/4" return lines to a outside pad ~125' away I bought the 500' spool and cut it down. (Should have gotten 1" for these runs but will work due to extra insulation in the place when I'm done.) the 4 lines are tied together and wrapped with a 24" wide radiant insulation "foil bubble bubble foil" and I over wrapped that with 3" box tape Cellophane type stuff to keep the radiant insulation from getting tore up. I pulled that into 4" tile the non-perforated type. I dug a trench from inside my barn aout 70' from the barn or so and buried the tile/insulated PEX-AL-PEX and I added 2 ea runs of 3/4" Black Poly pipe into the tench for electric and water out to the remote pad.)

I also bought a lot of fittings from them back then, they have better fittings now though. I still need an outside wood boiler to go onto the Pad where that tubing comes up. I have this all put into a 1st floor wash-utility room that can be seen in the photos.

I ended up buying a WATTS PEX panel (not yet installed) for the Mix/Tempering/control with 5 zones. I needed all 5 zones and have 1 additional zone outside the lean too porch which may never get hooked up for heat.

like others said, Insulation in very important to keep the system running well. I will have a lot more wall insulation than typ. home garage as I have pole barn construction so close to 8" of insulation/air space and will also end up in next few years installing insulated siding.

edit in:
Insulation was a sandwich on my install, after level & compacting poly went down, then 3/4" Styrofoam with seams taped, then the Radiant insulation this stuff TekFoil Reflective/Bubble Bubble/White Poly (R/BB/WP) - 8' x 125' - FarmTek then taped up all the seams in it and did the 3/4" t&g pink/blue 250PSI foam insulation then taped seams again and installed the wire mesh on 1" high chairs and installed tube onto the mesh which is 6x6 10awg. Wire Tied the tube to the wire mesh and makes measuring distance from walls ect easy as the 6" mesh...

The Radiant insulation stuff I bought 5 rolls with 1.75 rolls left over. I will install the left over stuff on the walls roof attic space when it comes. Cost break now is 4 rolls back then it was 5 but costs were a much better price break then buy 3 rolls was 1150 bucks buy 5 rolls it was like 1299 lol. So I opted for the extra with the future plans in mind. I used a good part of the .75 roll already on the walls in the utility room cut and stapled to the walls between studs after I installed 1.5" foam boards on the outside walls to take up the horizontal pole barn siding boards.


Mark

Wow a lot of info to process in one sitting, thanks. What was the reason you needed 5 zones? Was it because your piping runs were different lengths or was there some other reason? It has been cold out for the past couple days so I have been laying around the house working on a piping layout for my floor system. My main floor is 32X40 with a 10' wide pad on each side running the whole length on the 40' side. from what I have read it is best to try to lay it out with as few zones as possible so what I have been trying to do is keeping all the runs as close to 250' feet as possible. So far I have managed to lay out the runs to where they all are in the area of between 245' with the longest at 255'. I will have to go the 1/2" route because money is so tight right now. I also will have to pour it in two pours because I just can't see it in the cards to come up with enough money at once to do the whole thing at one time. I split the pad in half and will do a pour that is 20'X32' along with the right side 10'X40' room on the first pour.

I have it set up so that my manifold will be in a wall in a small office space that will be in part of the 10' addition on the right side of the building. I put this room as close to the center of the pad as I could get it thinking that it would be a perfect place to put all my utilities. The piping will come up in the wall and I will build a closet along the wall in this office space to place all my mechanical, plumbing, and electrical systems along with a small water heater to run the heating system on.

I am also going to plum it with piping to where I can add a small heat exchanger or two in the upper corners of the main building to help add some quick recovery if needed for those days that are just really cold. Of course I wont use these until I get my wood boiler built, but I have to get a place to work first. These heaters will be for heat but mainly to use as a circulation system to help clean the air. I do a lot of dirty, dusty work and I want some way to filter out some of the bigger junk that flies around in the air when I'm welding or grinding on a project.

Right now I'm trying to figure out what size pump to buy to move all this water through the piping system and if all the runs work out the way I hope I want to do it with one pump (1 zone).

 

[SPIKER]

MX: My barn is 50x50 with the lean to on it.


with a 50' run that is only 4 passes to 200 feet with 3 runs close around outside it does go fast. I added a run out for the 10X50 lean to for later that is not part of the 5 runs.

all went in pretty well if you go to photo bucket you can see a lot of pics of it.

Mark

 

[mx842]

MX: My barn is 50x50 with the lean to on it.


with a 50' run that is only 4 passes to 200 feet with 3 runs close around outside it does go fast. I added a run out for the 10X50 lean to for later that is not part of the 5 runs.

all went in pretty well if you go to photo bucket you can see a lot of pics of it.

Mark

OH, I must have misread you. I thought you were talking 6 different zones not loops....My bad.:ashamed: I'm about finished with my layout and it looks like I'll end up with at least 7 but more likely 8 loops to do my whole setup. I'll probably make room for the possibility of adding an additional zone for ice melt on the front of the building out about 15' and a cement pad on the side where I plan on adding a dog kennel later on, but that is a way down the road.

What size pump, (model #) did you use to circulate the water through the floor system? And do you know of a chart anywhere that could give an idea of how to figure flow (GPH/GPM) the pumps need to be for different size pumps and different pipe runs?

Like I said I'm in the research and collecting of items needed to do the job and you never know when something will pop up but I don't want to waste my money buying something I can't use.

 

[wedge40]

I've been meaning to add to this.
I plan on doing my floor later in the spring or early summer. My barn in up and there are two 1x6 tongue and groove around the perimeter.. I plan on using this as the frame for the cement. My question is how should I insulate the perimeter.. Should put 2" foam vertical on the inside or put the 2" foam vertical on the outside? I'm guessing the outside would be the best.

Wedge

 

[SPIKER]

I've been meaning to add to this.
I plan on doing my floor later in the spring or early summer. My barn in up and there are two 1x6 tongue and groove around the perimeter.. I plan on using this as the frame for the cement. My question is how should I insulate the perimeter.. Should put 2" foam vertical on the inside or put the 2" foam vertical on the outside? I'm guessing the outside would be the best.

Wedge

While you have access might aw well do BOTH sides of the skirt boards. That is what I did and by keeping the barn sides weed free mice are less likely to get to the Styrofoam.

MX there are several standard pumps available you will need to look at pump curves for the amount of heating you need in your area. I do not have mine all hooked up just yet but I have a couple granfus pumps for my system pre-bought through watching Evil Bay and picking & choosing when pumps went on sale cheap paid about 1/3 price of store for mine.


Mark

 

[mx842]

While you have access might aw well do BOTH sides of the skirt boards. That is what I did and by keeping the barn sides weed free mice are less likely to get to the Styrofoam.

MX there are several standard pumps available you will need to look at pump curves for the amount of heating you need in your area. I do not have mine all hooked up just yet but I have a couple granfus pumps for my system pre-bought through watching Evil Bay and picking & choosing when pumps went on sale cheap paid about 1/3 price of store for mine.


Mark

Yeah that is what I do also and e-bay is a pretty good place to look for stuff like this but you have to keep at it because stuff comes and goes so often. My main concern is with putting in the right pump with regard to pump volume because pumping the water too fast is as bad as not pumping it fast enough. There has to be some sort of chart somewhere that would tell you what pump size you need for X number amount of feet in a certain size tube.
If I wasn't such a tight wad I would pay the 150 to 500 bucks one of these companies wants to design a piping system.

As far as heat load that is really hard to figure with a pole barn, especially one like the one I am working on because it will be a continual work in progress probably until I kick the bucket. My plan has always been to get the roof, outside walls, and floor done so I will be able to work but to do finish work as I have time and add insulation as I go. This slab heating idea came about after I had started and had already gotten the roof on before I gave much thought about heat.

I have been talking to concrete people about the cost of pouring all this concrete and quickly found out that at this point it is over my budget to do it all at one time. In one way I'm glad I decided to hold off because it was after this that I started thinking about heating the floor and once it is in is too late to start thinking about something like that.:laughing: If I could get half the floor in then I could at least get some of my equipment in out of the weather and start setting stuff up the way I want it. It ain't no way I'm putting anything in there right now because soon it would be like my garage and I wouldn't even be able to get in the big door opening to finish anything. I'll just have to do the best as I can with the money I can find when I can find it.

 

[mx842]

I've been meaning to add to this.
I plan on doing my floor later in the spring or early summer. My barn in up and there are two 1x6 tongue and groove around the perimeter.. I plan on using this as the frame for the cement. My question is how should I insulate the perimeter.. Should put 2" foam vertical on the inside or put the 2" foam vertical on the outside? I'm guessing the outside would be the best.

Wedge

I had always planned to pour concrete about a foot outside of the walls all accept the front and there I will pour at least 10' and add to that later on. I will have to form up on the outside of the walls when I pour anyway so my first grit was placed on top of grade rather than the normal way of pouring concrete to the top of this board. I have 2X6 salt treated wood there and my plan it to put my side wall insulation under this board. This will give me 1 1/2" I can hide the foam so that it is not exposed to the in or outside elements. It is not as cold here as it is up north so a 2 inch piece 12" deep around the outside should be enough to do the job. I'll bevel the inside edge a 1/2 " and pour the concrete right up to the board on the inside.

I guess depending on where you are will depend on how much you need to place around the outside edge but to me it looks like it would be just as good on either side of your 1X6. Another thing that board also gives you some insulating quality so you also gain some there, not much but ever bit helps.