Buying American

[Willl]

I'm still waiting for the 'metric' clock.

How 'bout a metric calendar ?

 

[wrooster]

So far the three Buicks we ever owned were the most reliable and cheapest cars to maintain.

My experience with Buick, and GM in general, has been the exact opposite. In 1982, when I was in high school, my dad bought my mom a Buick Skylark. To say that this car was an utter complete POS would be an understatement. Every aspect of ownership -- including initial quality, warranty service, total cost of ownership, and finally the end disposition -- was disastrous.

In the first six months of it's service life, this car spent *at least* 4 weeks total in a bay at the dealer. Most of the problems were clear manufacturing issues; for example, the dash cover came unglued, which left an ugly protrusion extending down into the instrument cluster. The dealer took the dash apart and fixed it. A week later the silicone glue they used failed, and the problem was back. The dealer said that this was because the car had been parked in the sun. (!) This problem was never satisfactorily fixed and the end result -- in addition to everyone getting in the car asking "what's up with that?" -- was that the dash rattled to no end from all the times being taken apart.

Over the very limited life of this vehicle, there was no end to the problems -- cosmetic, electrical, and mechanical. The camshaft sensor failed at around 30K miles, stranding my mom and brother on the side of the highway. The driver's side window leaked water into the passenger compartment; the dealer had at least 5 shots at fixing this but the problem always returned.

The transaxle seal starting leaking around 50K miles, and as you are aware replacing same is a very expensive fix. My dad elected not to fix it and simply add a pint a month of fluid. Then the camshaft BROKE at about 80K miles, which left the vehicle DOA and a lot of metal chips scattered about the engine internals. The local dealer wanted a silly amount of money to fix it, on the order of half the cost of a new car. My dad looked around for an engine for weeks (this was pre-internet, and you had to call junkyards), finally found one, and had a local mechanic swap the engine. He sold the car the next week.

My dad had been a US Steel employee and it killed him but he swore off GM forever based on this.

I graduated engineering school and got a good job; against my dad's advice I purchased a new vehicle (my first, in fact) from a GM offshoot called Saturn. Months later I was back at the dealer asking them where all the engine oil was going. They had me run a "oil consumption test" -- they filled it, i came back in 3K miles, they checked it. It was quart low. "This is normal consumption rate", they said.

I said, "Suppose, just for a moment, that I used synthetic oil -- and used an OCI of 9K miles -- are you saying that I would have to add almost 3 quarts of make-up oil during that interval?"

They said, "Yes, that is the case. For this reason, we recommend that you use less expensive petroleum-based oil."

I said, "Really." :confused2:

The Saturn DOHC engine was of course afflicted with poor valve seat seals and consumed oil faster than a diesel engine. Saturn did not want to fix the problem for two years, and they finally acquiesced after a subsequent "oil consumption test" failed. In the meantime I had been going through a quart of oil every 3K miles on a NEW CAR. Then the dealer changed the valve stem seals and reported in the process that there was tremendous carbon buildup on the valves and in the combustion chamber.

Me <-- not surprised by this.

I had to get the heads and valves reground/reseated, and the piston tops cleaned at my expense, because the dealer would not cover this "extra" costs. I could also mention the engine mount that failed, etc etc etc all before 50K miles. I was not unhappy to see the back of that car being driven away by it's new owner.

GM, it's workers, it's dealers, and the UAW can all go sit on a cactus as far as I am concerned.

Oh, right, and then later as a taxpayer I got to bail them out of a situation they got themselves into. I almost forgot that part...

Wrooster

 

[Diamondpilot]

My experience with Buick, and GM in general, has been the exact opposite. In 1982, when I was in high school, my dad bought my mom a Buick Skylark. To say that this car was an utter complete POS would be an understatement. Every aspect of ownership -- including initial quality, warranty service, total cost of ownership, and finally the end disposition -- was disastrous.

In the first six months of it's service life, this car spent *at least* 4 weeks total in a bay at the dealer. Most of the problems were clear manufacturing issues; for example, the dash cover came unglued, which left an ugly protrusion extending down into the instrument cluster. The dealer took the dash apart and fixed it. A week later the silicone glue they used failed, and the problem was back. The dealer said that this was because the car had been parked in the sun. (!) This problem was never satisfactorily fixed and the end result -- in addition to everyone getting in the car asking "what's up with that?" -- was that the dash rattled to no end from all the times being taken apart.

Over the very limited life of this vehicle, there was no end to the problems -- cosmetic, electrical, and mechanical. The camshaft sensor failed at around 30K miles, stranding my mom and brother on the side of the highway. The driver's side window leaked water into the passenger compartment; the dealer had at least 5 shots at fixing this but the problem always returned.

The transaxle seal starting leaking around 50K miles, and as you are aware replacing same is a very expensive fix. My dad elected not to fix it and simply add a pint a month of fluid. Then the camshaft BROKE at about 80K miles, which left the vehicle DOA and a lot of metal chips scattered about the engine internals. The local dealer wanted a silly amount of money to fix it, on the order of half the cost of a new car. My dad looked around for an engine for weeks (this was pre-internet, and you had to call junkyards), finally found one, and had a local mechanic swap the engine. He sold the car the next week.

My dad had been a US Steel employee and it killed him but he swore off GM forever based on this.

I graduated engineering school and got a good job; against my dad's advice I purchased a new vehicle (my first, in fact) from a GM offshoot called Saturn. Months later I was back at the dealer asking them where all the engine oil was going. They had me run a "oil consumption test" -- they filled it, i came back in 3K miles, they checked it. It was quart low. "This is normal consumption rate", they said.

I said, "Suppose, just for a moment, that I used synthetic oil -- and used an OCI of 9K miles -- are you saying that I would have to add almost 3 quarts of make-up oil during that interval?"

They said, "Yes, that is the case. For this reason, we recommend that you use less expensive petroleum-based oil."

I said, "Really." :confused2:

The Saturn DOHC engine was of course afflicted with poor valve seat seals and consumed oil faster than a diesel engine. Saturn did not want to fix the problem for two years, and they finally acquiesced after a subsequent "oil consumption test" failed. In the meantime I had been going through a quart of oil every 3K miles on a NEW CAR. Then the dealer changed the valve stem seals and reported in the process that there was tremendous carbon buildup on the valves and in the combustion chamber.

Me <-- not surprised by this.

I had to get the heads and valves reground/reseated, and the piston tops cleaned at my expense, because the dealer would not cover this "extra" costs. I could also mention the engine mount that failed, etc etc etc all before 50K miles. I was not unhappy to see the back of that car being driven away by it's new owner.

GM, it's workers, it's dealers, and the UAW can all go sit on a cactus as far as I am concerned.

Oh, right, and then later as a taxpayer I got to bail them out of a situation they got themselves into. I almost forgot that part...

Wrooster

Your experience sound like mine with GM. First new vehicle was a 1989 4.3L S-10 Blazzer. What a POS. Blew the motor up at 30,000 miles, transfer case failed at 35,000 miles, and it had a host of other issue also before it was traded at 36,000 miles, the day the warranty ran out.

Next GM was a 1999 Saturn SC2. Actually a pretty good little car. Standard GM problems but mainly nickle and dime stuff. Sold it to my dads friend for his daughter at 120,000 miles. She drove it for a number of years.

Next was a POS 2005 4x4 GMC 3500 Dmax. Leaks, Injectors, Glow Plugs, Paint issues, Wiring issues, Power Seat Issues, Leaking Front Windshield, Overheating, ect. Traded after only 9 months of ownership of which it made no less than 15 trips to the dealer. Good thing I still had a 2004 Ford F-250 4x4 Diesel to do some work with. Nothing like dropping 50K on a truck that sits broken all the time. Went back to Ford and got a 06 F-350 Powerstroke that has only had a bad gas gauge since new.

Last and final was a 2004 Saturn SC2 I bought used. It used 1 quart of oil every other fill up, or 600 miles.:confused2: GM said that was in spec. Other than the fast oil consumption, not a leak on the car, it was pretty good. I replaced the neutral safety switch on the tranny twice, a know Saturn issue, the horn, a power window, the sunroof gear box twice, the exhaust system, ball joints and tie rods, and almost all the interior dash lights, not sure on that one. I have owned 20 plus other vehicles and never replaces a dash light or really any lights other than a occasional tail light or low beam. Guess it just the good GM electrical system:confused2:. All in all it was a good reliable car. Sold it to my insurance man with just over 130,000 miles and his daughter wrecked it texting. Go figure.

I am like you though and done with them. I would still have that last Saturn if it were not for the bailout. It disgusted me and I had enough.

Chris

 

[crazyal]

I can remember the days when if you bought a new American car and wanted mud flaps the dealer would simply take sheet metal screws and drive them through the steel fenders to hold them on. My first Toyota (77) had predrilled holes with plastic snaps and the screws never touch the sheet metal of the fender. It would be years before American companies caught up, I wonder how much longer it would of took without foreign competition?

 

[Obed]

I think superduty59 has been ganged on enough. I greatly respect his ideals; I once held them myself. However, my poor experiences with US cars and disbelief of some of the auto labor union strikes in the 80's changed my attitude.

My first car, a 1975 Ford Maverick had the freeze plugs rust through at 45K miles and caused the engine to overheat when the coolant leaked out. The engine had to be lifted in order to replace eight 25 cent freeze plugs. I was informed by the mechanic that the freeze plugs were not designed to prevent the engine block from cracking if the coolant froze as Ford claimed. He said the freeze plugs filled in holes in the engine that were used at the factory to hold the engine during installation. The freeze plugs issue was just bad engineering and Ford engineers knew it. They knowingly designed the car poorly like that for cost savings.

In the early 1980s, I remember the UAW was striking when the average UAW wage was $20/hour for people with little education and very few job skills. At that time, $20/hour was a tremendous wage, much more money than college grads were making. When I saw that, my allegience to US cars dissentigrated.

I see lots of usability features that are standard on foreign cars but don't exist on some of the more expensive US sedans. I still see US cars made with windshield wipers that you have to hold off the glass with one hand while you clean the windshield with the other hand.

While US cars are better built now than they were in the 70s, I'm still not convinced they are as good as Hondas and some of the other japanese models. I don't think many people will argue that the US cars in the 70s were pieces of junk and the auto companies knew it.

I do try to buy US made tools when I can find them, not for patriotic reasons but because I don't like the cheap Chinese made tools. It is almost impossible to buy US made clothes these days.

 

[superduty59]

I see a lot of good points being made. Things are a little different now. I grew up on Chevy cars and trucks and Ford trucks. I have a 69 Camaro that needs restored when I get to it. I'm also looking for a good running unmolested 12v Cummins to put in my old 97 Chevy 1 ton dually. I also love and collect old Cub Cadets.

I would be silly to see someone restore a honda civic or a tundra or collect mahindra tractors unless you were japanese.

To me a car or truck isn't just transportation. It's a reflection of my personality. It's a silly thing I like to call pride. I have to admit I would look pretty silly wearing my camo gear pulling up in a toyota!


There are a few confusing things I notice from time to time. My buddy is a retired Navy chief. He has never owned or will own a foreign vehicle. I see American veterans who risked their lives for this country and come home to buy a toyota and plaster it with american flag stickers. I also know of a few biker clubs and if you show up on any jap bike it will stripped and left in pieces. I have another buddy who is a farmer who provides food for America but he let his wife buy a honda pilot.


America builds quality products in my mind. Growing up all of dads cars and trucks and all of mine have been very reliable.

I do have 2 other buddies who are american mind you, who will only buy toyota trucks. Both had 4-5 year old tacomas and the frame on both trucks looked like swiss cheese. Put them on a lift and wheelbase gets closer if you know what I mean. So yea thats a high quaility product right :confused2:there!:confused2:

 

[wrooster]

I do have 2 other buddies who are american mind you, who will only buy toyota trucks. Both had 4-5 year old tacomas and the frame on both trucks looked like swiss cheese. Put them on a lift and wheelbase gets closer if you know what I mean. So yea thats a high quaility product right

Oh boy did you step in it now!

Toyota Tacomas, as I pointed out above, have been made in the USA for some time. First at NUMMI in California, and now in Austin TX.

Naturally, Toyota uses US-based suppliers for large, heavy sub-assemblies -- say, like a pickup truck frame. Toyota contracted with Dana Corp in Toledo, Ohio to supply Tacoma frames.

Tacoma owners, especially in the northern states (where salt is used to mitigate ice and snow on the road surface) began to complain to Toyota about frame corrosion. Toyota launched an investigation and discovered that Dana was skipping several frame processing steps during the anti-corrosion application. In particular, they were not de-greasing/de-oiling the assembled frame prior to applying the corrosion seal. Ooops.

As part of a settlement, Dana eventually paid Toyota $25 million to cover warranty claims for the faulty frames:
Dana pays $25 million to Toyota to settle Tacoma claim | Reuters

So, the very example of a Toyota problem that you brought up is the fault of the USA-based, UAW-staffed frame supplier!

LoL.

Wrooster

ps:
I would like to draw your attention to what Toyota did for Tacoma owners:

Toyota Extends Tacoma Frame Rust Warranty to 15 Years | The Center for Autosafety

Beginning in March 2008, Toyota notified owners of 1995 to 2000 Tacoma's that the rust warranty on the frame would be extended from 3 years, 36,000 miles to 15 years, unlimited mileage.

If the vehicle cannot be repaired, Toyota will repurchase it for 1.5 times the Kelly Blue Book price. The number of vehicles covered by the warranty extension is 813,000 but Toyota alleges:

"The majority of vehicles nationwide will not experience this condition; it should occur only in a limited number of vehicles operated
in areas with significant snow accumulation combined with extensive road salt usage and visiting owner's vehicles from these areas."

Talk about owning up to your problems and treating your customers right!

Your "buddies" should have been contacted numerous times by Toyota for a free frame inspection at the dealer. Every Tacoma owner knows about this by now. If the vehicle passes the structural test, it will get a new undercoat, no charge. If it doesn't pass, the vehicle will either get a new frame free of charge //or// Toyota will buy back the Tacoma for 1.5 times the current value shown in the Kelly Blue Book (KBB). So either you get your vehicle fixed in totality, or you get a big check. There is no possible way your "buddies" don't know about this program.

By the way, this entire frame corrosion episode drove UP the resale value of Tacomas.

Compare to GM's recent behavior:
GM says bankruptcy excuses it from Impala repairs | Reuters

NEW YORK, Aug 19 (Reuters) - General Motors Co (GM.N) is seeking to dismiss a lawsuit over a suspension problem on more than 400,000 Chevrolet Impalas from the 2007 and 2008 model years, saying it should not be responsible for repairs because the flaw predated its bankruptcy.

The lawsuit, filed on June 29 by Donna Trusky of Blakely, Pennsylvania, contended that her Impala suffered from faulty rear spindle rods, causing her rear tires to wear out after just 6,000 miles. [ID:nN1E7650CT]

Seeking class-action status and alleging breach of warranty, the lawsuit demands that GM fix the rods, saying that it had done so on Impala police vehicles.

But in a recent filing with the U.S. District Court in Detroit, GM noted that the cars were made by its predecessor General Motors Corp, now called Motors Liquidation Co or "Old GM," before its 2009 bankruptcy and federal bailout.

The current company, called "New GM," said it did not assume responsibility under the reorganization to fix the Impala problem, but only to make repairs "subject to conditions and limitations" in express written warranties. In essence, the automaker said, Trusky sued the wrong entity.

"New GM's warranty obligations for vehicles sold by Old GM are limited to the express terms and conditions in the Old GM written warranties on a going-forward basis," wrote Benjamin Jeffers, a lawyer for GM. "New GM did not assume responsibility for Old GM's design choices, conduct, or alleged breaches of liability under the warranty."

Read that last sentence again. What a load of crap!

 

[mjncad]

I just read a story about Buick while back. GM wanted to ax the brand but Chinese protested. Buick was the favorite car of the emperor. Buick is quite popular car in China.

Yep, the last emperor of China had a Buick. Maybe they're popular over there as a way for the upper middle class Chinese citizen to thumb their nose at their Commie Gummint.

And David Hasselhoff is a popular singer in Germany.

Therefore, it must be a good product.

Wrooster

:laughing: And the French think Jerry Lewis is a comedic god.

Are you an American? Do you not like your country? Are you not proud of the things we produce? Just wondering!

Buying a Honda over a Gummint Motors (formerly General Mediocrity) product has nothing to do with being an American or not, or liking one's country or not. I bought a GM product new in 1983. Worst POS I've ever owned. Loyalty to a brand is a two-way street. If GM wants me to be a loyal customer, I expect some loyalty in return that they build and stand behind a quality product. They failed miserably in that regard, and since they botched it I went and bought products that do work (e.g. Honda for cars and Ford for trucks).

Sorry to pop everyone's bubble (no pun intended) but it isn't what we will buy but what the rest of the world will buy and from whom. We cannot exist as an economic power by producing stuff for our own self consumption. We need to produce products that the rest of the world wants, just like we do with certain ag food products. The consumers of the world will not be in the US. The rest of the world needs to pay our wages now through purchases of products made in the USA. Too bad, that means that they will also dictate somewhat how much we get paid.

Excellent post! :thumbsup:

I'm still waiting for the 'metric' clock.

How 'bout a metric calendar ?

A base 10 (metric) clock and calendar would make a lot of sense. A 10-hour day with 100-minutes per hour, and 100-seconds per minute. A 10-month calendar with 36-days per month, with a 6-day week, plus a yearly leap week would work. Of course every 4-years, a leap day would be added to the leap week.

Radians are the metric equivalent for lack of a better term for measuring angles. All computers think in radians, and convert to Degrees-Minutes-Seconds, or decimal degrees for humans. The only real reason for a 360-degree circle is to come as close to matching the Earth's revolution period around the sun.

My experience with Buick, and GM in general, has been the exact opposite. In 1982, when I was in high school, my dad bought my mom a Buick Skylark. To say that this car was an utter complete POS would be an understatement. Every aspect of ownership -- including initial quality, warranty service, total cost of ownership, and finally the end disposition -- was disastrous.

Wrooster

That reminds me that the woman I was dating at the time bought a 1983 two-tone Skylark. I remember the body color (some sort of cream) was peeling off of it, and GM paid for the Buick dealer to repaint the portions going bad under warranty. They couldn't even match the color properly so it turned out to be a three-tone car. To this day I see GM and Congressional Motors (formerly Chrysler Motors) white paint peeling off in sheets.

I see a lot of good points being made. Things are a little different now. I grew up on Chevy cars and trucks and Ford trucks. I have a 69 Camaro that needs restored when I get to it. I'm also looking for a good running unmolested 12v Cummins to put in my old 97 Chevy 1 ton dually. I also love and collect old Cub Cadets.

I grew up with GM too; but that S-10 pickup I had cured me of that illness.

I would be silly to see someone restore a honda civic or a tundra or collect mahindra tractors unless you were japanese.

Actually there is a healthy community of Americans buying up old Datsun's (not just 240Z's) and restoring them. Most are from when Datsun/Nissan first entered the USA market, or are unique models peculiar to Japan at the time.

To me a car or truck isn't just transportation. It's a reflection of my personality. It's a silly thing I like to call pride. I have to admit I would look pretty silly wearing my camo gear pulling up in a toyota!

All vehicles reflect an owner's personality; but why would you look silly wearing camo gear in a Toyota? Now if you wore a dress with fishnet stockings and 4" heels in any vehicle, I'd be laughing my butt off. :laughing:

There are a few confusing things I notice from time to time. My buddy is a retired Navy chief. He has never owned or will own a foreign vehicle. I see American veterans who risked their lives for this country and come home to buy a toyota and plaster it with american flag stickers. I also know of a few biker clubs and if you show up on any jap bike it will stripped and left in pieces. I have another buddy who is a farmer who provides food for America but he let his wife buy a honda pilot.

So are you condoning what the biker clubs do? Whether you or any of us like it or not, we live in a global economy. Would you buy a Chrysler product since Fiat (Italian) has a large stake in the company now? What about when Daimler (German) owned them? If GM went belly up as they should have, would you still buy a GM product after the Chinese picked up the pieces as an easy way to enter the USA market?

America builds quality products in my mind. Growing up all of dads cars and trucks and all of mine have been very reliable.

Yes, America has and does build quality products; but it's also turned out some atrocious crap too. Do I like Chinese made stuff? Not in the least, and I avoid it as much as realistically possible.

I do have 2 other buddies who are american mind you, who will only buy toyota trucks. Both had 4-5 year old tacomas and the frame on both trucks looked like swiss cheese. Put them on a lift and wheelbase gets closer if you know what I mean. So yea thats a high quaility product right :confused2:there!:confused2:

Yep, plenty of American branded vehicles have done that too, along with German, French, British, Italian makes. Ever one makes a dud now and then, some more so than others.

 

[ultrarunner]

There are a few confusing things I notice from time to time. My buddy is a retired Navy chief. He has never owned or will own a foreign vehicle. I see American veterans who risked their lives for this country and come home to buy a toyota and plaster it with american flag stickers. I also know of a few biker clubs and if you show up on any jap bike it will stripped and left in pieces. I have another buddy who is a farmer who provides food for America but he let his wife buy a honda pilot.

You bring up an interesting point... the vet I bought my home from is a WWII decorated fighter ACE in the Pacific Theater... shot down 5 Japanese planes in one day and credited with saving the carrier...

He always calls Japanese cars *** footlockers so I was surprised when the only new car he ever bought was a Miata roadster.... he just decided one day that he wanted a roadster like the 36 Ford he owned years ago and went shopping... here's a guy that is on PBS narrating battle footage... was nearly killed and bears the scars and limp from enemy fire and he loves his Miata... he especially likes the way the "Cockpit" is outfitted.

After the war he was stationed on Okinawa and made lifelong friends with many Japanese he met...

Oh... his wife drove a 62 Mercedes while they were stationed in Japan... bought from another officer that was in Germany, then Japan before going stateside...

 

[tractorshopper]

Interesting twists in this thread and it's causing me to reflect.

I have yet to buy a foreign automaker's car or truck. Not even on purpose though unless subconsiously. I am a proud American, served in the Navy, and love my country, but don't think I'd feel guilty about buying a Honda if I felt like it.

Dad and an uncle worked in Flint at GM when I was young. I remember the day my middle brother bought a Toyota Tocoma. Dad about had a heart attack and railed on my brother when my brother was proud to have got a job and was earning his own way in life as Dad taught us. When I was about 16 though, another uncle bought a Honda Accord and my dad was giving him a hard time about it when he told my dad that it was built in Ohio, then showed him the sticker to prove it. While most vehicles since then for my dad have been domestic brands, he has since purchased foreign vehicles I think at least twice. Times have changed a lot and the global economy has changed the mindset a lot. I can respect both sides of this arguement.

I have had more Ford vehicles than any other. Interestingly enough, every single one I have owned had some type of electrical problem. None real major though and I keep buying them. Have owned a couple Dodge's too. Best or tied for best for me so far is actually my wife's 2003 Durango and all we ever heard was horror stories about Dodge. Other tied for best was a 1996 Saturn S1. Cheapest car they made; never had the first problem. Traded it on a Saturn LS2 (nicest car they made when it was first introduced) and while I loved the looks and comfort, it was a complete lemon. Had so many issues and repeat issues I can't begin to name them. Lived at the dealership getting warranty work while I drove a loaner. Final straw was when it started smoking at 32,000 miles. Caused me to buy my wife's Durango, so maybe some good came from it. Had a GMC S-15 that I cracked a block in, but it was older and had lots of miles. Other than that one Saturn, I really can't complain. Getting ready to buy another car for my wife and save the Durango for our daughters and not sure what direction we'll take this time, but I can tell you fuel economy is on the mind. We'll take a look at them all.