Ford Focus Hated. Who did not see this coming?

[LD1]

Not sure I buy into all the efficiency BS. And my nest car will most definatally NOT be an electric OR a hybrid.

I simply look at the #'s. To me, efficency is how far each dollar will get me. And I will buy the car that will take me the farthest per dollar.

Take the chevy volt for example. A $40k car. Lets compare that to say a chevy cruze @ $20k and 38MPG.

That $20k difference @ $4/gal gas is 5000 gallons in fuel. and @ 38MPG, that is 190,000 miles:confused2: So I could drive the cruze for 190k miles JUST to be back to the cost of the volt. And thats not even counting what it cost to charge the volt. So in reality, the payback would probabally be like 300k miles. Which is just dandy because that expensive battery only has a 100k warrenty:confused2:

And the results are the same on every other comparison I have looked at. A few years back, when shopping for the wife, comparing the civic to the civic hybrid. Factoring in the added up front cost for the MPG gain, it would take 200k to just break even.

UNTIL these #'s become more appealing, I am not jumping on the band wagon yet.

Same reason I havent jumped on "alternative" energy yet. Because with where I live (no net metering), best I can find is 15-16 year paybacks. And it just so happens that, that is about all the life expectancy of wind turbines and solar panels are before issues start comming up.

 

[arrow]

Not sure I buy into all the efficiency BS. And my nest car will most definatally NOT be an electric OR a hybrid.

I simply look at the #'s. To me, efficency is how far each dollar will get me. And I will buy the car that will take me the farthest per dollar.

Take the chevy volt for example. A $40k car. Lets compare that to say a chevy cruze @ $20k and 38MPG.

That $20k difference @ $4/gal gas is 5000 gallons in fuel. and @ 38MPG, that is 190,000 miles:confused2: So I could drive the cruze for 190k miles JUST to be back to the cost of the volt. And thats not even counting what it cost to charge the volt. So in reality, the payback would probabally be like 300k miles. Which is just dandy because that expensive battery only has a 100k warrenty:confused2:

And the results are the same on every other comparison I have looked at. A few years back, when shopping for the wife, comparing the civic to the civic hybrid. Factoring in the added up front cost for the MPG gain, it would take 200k to just break even.

UNTIL these #'s become more appealing, I am not jumping on the band wagon yet.

Same reason I havent jumped on "alternative" energy yet. Because with where I live (no net metering), best I can find is 15-16 year paybacks. And it just so happens that, that is about all the life expectancy of wind turbines and solar panels are before issues start comming up.

As long as EROI is only averaging 1.5/1 and many times much lower (think wind turbine array) on what we call alternative energy sources, it is going to be very difficult to match fossil fuels currently in this domain. (new oil field in Kuwait is at a 100/1) I'm not saying oil extraction cost will not reach 1/1 someday but it will be difficult to compete until the playing field is leveled and/or the benefits of alternative fuels outweighs energy return on investment.

 

[Diamondpilot]

Even if a electric car was 95% efficient the grid that delivers the electricity is about 60% efficient on a good day. That blows a major hole in the green/tree hugger argument.

Chris

 

[2manyrocks]

Another $40K car with limited range. Ford and GM both know better or are they that out of touch with reality?

 

[ultrarunner]

Don't think all of that is true but I can tell you this, we design emissions systems against CARB rules since CARB seems to control the EPA.

Let's all thank California for helping the country to regulate us in to financial extinction.

How much does it cost per car for regulation, anyone care to guess?

I can testify the California legislators are very proud of their role in emissions and car regs...

I have attended several protests at the State Capital and and spoke before the sub committee... almost to a person, they view what they are doing as God's work and would like very much to reshape the rest of the country in California's image... just ask former Speaker Pelosi.

One of the problems I have is my 1975 car needs to be smog checked every two years and the shop technicians are younger than my car and really don't have a clue.. for the most part what they are doing...

I can't think of any other State that requires 37 year old collector cars to be Dyno tested... just part of the master plan I guess...

 

[JasG]

I can testify the California legislators are very proud of their role in emissions and car regs...

I have attended several protests at the State Capital and and spoke before the sub committee... almost to a person, they view what they are doing as God's work and would like very much to reshape the rest of the country in California's image... just ask former Speaker Pelosi.
QUOTE]

Yes and by hook or crook they will come up with regs even if the science is shaky or even non-existent. The CARB diesel "study" is a shinning example. NY followed in lock step. Both states have managed to put a good deal of trucking and construction companies out of buisness.

I've brought this up here before how the EPA and CARB though changing rules with Diesel emission have really hurt John Deere, Navistar, and Caterpillar giving a huge advantage to euopean and companies tied to european engine builders. It is also the biggest reason why Cat go out of making engines for over the road trucks. They now just came out with a truck with help of Navistar, but for a couple years now no new trucks could have a Cat engine.

I't one thing to come up with solid rules that have solid science. It's another to rule and regulate just to prove you still need to rule and regulate.

This is a Blog, but it does outline very well what I have found on my own. Or anyone can do a search for CARB and diesel fraud. You find out a lot.
http://wmbriggs.com/blog/?p=3702

 

[two_bit_score]

The Prius is a proven vehicle with over 2,000,000 worldwide including 1,000,000 in the U.S. since 1997.

2008 Prius. Wife drives 150 miles round trip to work three times per week. 45 to 50 MPG. per tank. 450 mile per tank more than once. Worst gas mileage was 38 MPG. 170,000 miles on it. Drives better than a Civic. I drive fast on the freeway. Been across the U.S. twice. Five adults with their baggage more than once.
When this Prius hits 200,000 miles we will buy another and keep the 2008.

I almost expected you to say that the car washed and buffed itself and made you breakfast every Sunday.



.

 

[ultrarunner]

I can testify the California legislators are very proud of their role in emissions and car regs...

I have attended several protests at the State Capital and and spoke before the sub committee... almost to a person, they view what they are doing as God's work and would like very much to reshape the rest of the country in California's image... just ask former Speaker Pelosi.

Yes and by hook or crook they will come up with regs even if the science is shaky or even non-existent. The CARB diesel "study" is a shinning example. NY followed in lock step. Both states have managed to put a good deal of trucking and construction companies out of buisness.

Yes... it has been a real hardship for the independents.

I personally know of several family operations that called it quits.

One is a friend and he and his wife ran a backhoe/dump truck excavation business... his equipment was older, and still looked like new and he bought them both new.

The prospect of re powering just didn't make financial sense... he is quite bitter about it.

The big utilities sold off a ton of equipment out of State... we are facing the same problem with our Hospital Emergency Generators... excellent units bought in 1995 with expansion in mind and have very few hours... we have been put on notice they will soon have to be retired...

Same goes for the diesel tree chippers and 50hp and up construction equipment... kind of goes against everything I was taught growing up... taking care and maintaining equipment so it will last a lifetime...

 

[JasG]

Yes... it has been a real hardship for the independents.

I personally know of several family operations that called it quits.

One is a friend and he and his wife ran a backhoe/dump truck excavation business... his equipment was older, and still looked like new and he bought them both new.

The prospect of re powering just didn't make financial sense... he is quite bitter about it.

The big utilities sold off a ton of equipment out of State... we are facing the same problem with our Hospital Emergency Generators... excellent units bought in 1995 with expansion in mind and have very few hours... we have been put on notice they will soon have to be retired...

Same goes for the diesel tree chippers and 50hp and up construction equipment... kind of goes against everything I was taught growing up... taking care and maintaining equipment so it will last a lifetime...

I sold my dozer and dump truck because (I was doing work for myself as hobby) as soon as this went through in NY I knew the value would drop. I kept my backhoe because a famer may want it and I still had some personal work to do with it. Dozer was in great shape, but no contractor would want it because it wouldn't comply. Now had I kept it it would be worth about 1/2 what I sold it for. My cousin a 2nd generation excavation contractor couldn't afford to upgrade so he is out, sold out 2 years ago. I read in one magazine a guy in CA who was a 3rd generation contractor. His fleet was on average 5 years old, he did have some machines 7-8 years old in that mix. He couldn't afford to upgrade so he sold out. He figure he got about 1/3 what the machines were worth. I don't remember if his fleet was worth 5 million or that was what he got after the auction. Either way he didn't know if it would be enough to pay off what he owed on his equipment that was newer. Only out of state contractors could use the stuff. this had a ripple effect across the united states because much of this went into effect right when the economy was tanking.

Then to find out is was all based on fraud. people with an agenda who didn't care about the truth. It makes for a bitter pill to swallow.

Corning Glass makes some of the filters here in NY. The day the emissions were passed they made huge donations to top democrats and republicans. they also got state aid to build a new plant to make the fliters.

Here is some more for those interested.

http://www.forbes.com/2010/06/08/ca...olumnists-henry-i-miller-james-e-enstrom.html

http://heartland.org/policy-documen...ntific-protests-passes-new-diesel-regulations

 

[IslandTractor]

Never seen it advertised. Still see Volts on TV here with some college aged Asian girl touting what a great vehicle it is.

Its destiny will be failure also if it cost twice as much as a comparable gas car, has crappy range, and has issues like the volt.

Chris

Precisely what I think about the Model T. Ridiculous. You have to feed it fuel that cannot be grown on the farm, it has limited range and is only popular because it is a new fangled gadget. It will never sell.