Rear tire leaking rimguard

[AKfish]

I personally enjoyed every minute of it and made some great friends even though it took 16,000 Lbs of air pressure. Glad yours was a simple solution pOpeye.

Indeed... 16K is probably as good an estimate as any.

Snap responses, quick replies; no instinct to attempt to "read-between-the-lines"; let alone recognize "tongue-in-cheek" attempts at humor.

I've certainly fallen into those potholes, before! The beauty of email-like communication.

Heck, I'm havin' a really, really good day if I only misunderstand my wife AND kids at least a dozen different times! And, that's face to face..

As well; it's always a good response with my family to say - "increase the air pressure" - when you're not sure what they really mean...

Shuts 'em up; everytime!

AKfish

 

[xtn]

Well, thank you for all that xtn. You shoudn't have. Please read the post above. I am a bit confused with your exclamations however. S219 states pressures have nothing to do with it and your first word seems to agree with that. "Yup" you say but go on to state they can. If the liquid cannot be compressed as the air would, how could the air force out more ballast? Wouldn't the leak increase or decrease based on the weight of the ballast itself and where the leak was in relation to the ballast if indeed liquids are so difficult if not impossible with these amounts of air pressure to compress?

Sorry for the confusion. While the liquid cannot be compressed, it can be under pressure. The harder you squeeze on the plunger of a syringe, the faster the liquid shoots out of the end other end. Same thing.

And yes the weight of the liquid itself provides some pressure. Even without additional air pressure above it, a column of liquid will leak faster through a hole near its bottom than it will through the same hole near its top. Additional pressure applied by compression is additive throughout the vessel and would speed up either leak accordingly.

xtn

 

[arrow]

I think the type of leak the op had was more about an any point leak rather than a pin hole. In this case an increase in pressure was actually called for as a result of the characteristics as to why it was leaking in the first place. I did not want the op to be concerned about increasing a leak by adding air pressure as it may have prevented him in doing what he had to do to fix the leak in the first place.I can understand what you are saying though as if there was a leak of any sort, it would provide an "exit" point or a path of least resistance as opposed to an air tight container where air pressure at such small amounts would do very little to compress the fluid.

 

[arrow]

Indeed... 16K is probably as good an estimate as any.

Snap responses, quick replies; no instinct to attempt to "read-between-the-lines"; let alone recognize "tongue-in-cheek" attempts at humor.

I've certainly fallen into those potholes, before! The beauty of email-like communication.

Heck, I'm havin' a really, really good day if I only misunderstand my wife AND kids at least a dozen different times! And, that's face to face..

As well; it's always a good response with my family to say - "increase the air pressure" - when you're not sure what they really mean...

Shuts 'em up; everytime!

AKfish

You hit it right on the head AK. All of what we say on this forum can certainly be misinterpreted. This is not the kind of stuff to get "pressurized" from. Its always the learning experience for me whether its about the people or the actual subject of the original post. (ps. I was up your way 6 months ago. First time I was in Alaska. Pretty awesome place) By the way, I am told that 16K of pressure was at least needed to create the lock in a vessel of air and beet juice I joked about. As long as the vessel could withstand that kind of pressure that is. I don't think a tractor tire falls under that heading.

 

[s219]

You hit it right on the head AK. All of what we say on this forum can certainly be misinterpreted. This is not the kind of stuff to get "pressurized" from. Its always the learning experience for me whether its about the people or the actual subject of the original post. (ps. I was up your way 6 months ago. First time I was in Alaska. Pretty awesome place) By the way, I am told that 16K of pressure was at least needed to create the lock in a vessel of air and beet juice I joked about. As long as the vessel could withstand that kind of pressure that is. I don't think a tractor tire falls under that heading.

Keep in mind the 16000 psi just makes the air as dense as RimGuard so that there is no longer any difference in density, and the two fluids can mingle without buoyancy effects. But they still flow as fluids, and the tire/wheel still rotates around the fluids, stirring them up. The fluid in contact with the inner surfaces of the tire/wheel will move at the same speed as the wheel, but elsewhere in the volume it's going to be somewhere between that speed and zero. Due to friction in the fluids, there will always be some loss of speed as you get away from moving surfaces. In a big enough tire, the fluid in the centers could still be almost stationary.

It would be cool to build a plexiglass test rig that could simulate the interior volume of a tire, to see how fluid behaves under rotation with that air pocket at the top. I may pitch that idea to the next intern I get.... They are suckers for lab projects like that. And in case you think I am nuts, here's what flow looks like inside the annular space between two counter-rotating cylinders in a certain speed range:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cEqvx0N_txI]Taylor Couette Flows - YouTube[/ame]

Interesting things happen when you start rotating fluids inside confined spaces.

 

[arrow]

Keep in mind the 16000 psi just makes the air as dense as RimGuard so that there is no longer any difference in density, and the two fluids can mingle without buoyancy effects. But they still flow as fluids, and the tire/wheel still rotates around the fluids, stirring them up. The fluid in contact with the inner surfaces of the tire/wheel will move at the same speed as the wheel, but elsewhere in the volume it's going to be somewhere between that speed and zero. Due to friction in the fluids, there will always be some loss of speed as you get away from moving surfaces. In a big enough tire, the fluid in the centers could still be almost stationary.

It would be cool to build a plexiglass test rig that could simulate the interior volume of a tire, to see how fluid behaves under rotation with that air pocket at the top. I may pitch that idea to the next intern I get.... They are suckers for lab projects like that. And in case you think I am nuts, here's what flow looks like inside the annular space between two counter-rotating cylinders in a certain speed range:

Taylor Couette Flows - YouTube

Interesting things happen when you start rotating fluids inside confined spaces.

If this was in a container that was flipped upside down and they were of the same density what would it take for the two materials not to rotate? Then they'd be acting as a solid. Would any amount of pressure create that effect?
I agree that this would be cool to look at what's going on. What is the highest pressure (internal) any container built was ever able to withstand if it were introduced gradually unlike an explosion. ( I do not think I'd want to be in the same building the day when they found out about how much force a dedicated pressure holding container was able to withstand)

 

[greg_g]

Somebody get a net. Please.

//greg//

 

[s219]

If this was in a container that was flipped upside down and they were of the same density what would it take for the two materials not to rotate? Then they'd be acting as a solid. Would any amount of pressure create that effect?

Not pressure, but temperature could do it if they were liquids and the temperature was reduced below their freezing point (probably stating the obvious there, but it's the only way it would happen). As long as you're above freezing, the liquids will "flow" and will be incapable of holding like a solid. The fundamental aspect is how the material responds under applied forces and accelerations. Fluids will always flow.

 

[arrow]

Not pressure, but temperature could do it if they were liquids and the temperature was reduced below their freezing point (probably stating the obvious there, but it's the only way it would happen). As long as you're above freezing, the liquids will "flow" and will be incapable of holding like a solid. The fundamental aspect is how the material responds under applied forces and accelerations. Fluids will always flow.

If the density of a gas with sufficient pressure creates a greater density than the liquid in the same container, it could never hold the liquid up? Would it even be possible to over come the density of the liquid without a total intermingling of the gas and liquid under such pressures?

 

[arrow]

Somebody get a net. Please.

//greg//

Now you're the one being silly.... you can't do this experiment with a net. It just won't hold the pressure.

 

[arrow]

Keep in mind the 16000 psi just makes the air as dense as RimGuard so that there is no longer any difference in density, and the two fluids can mingle without buoyancy effects. But they still flow as fluids, and the tire/wheel still rotates around the fluids, stirring them up. The fluid in contact with the inner surfaces of the tire/wheel will move at the same speed as the wheel, but elsewhere in the volume it's going to be somewhere between that speed and zero. Due to friction in the fluids, there will always be some loss of speed as you get away from moving surfaces. In a big enough tire, the fluid in the centers could still be almost stationary.

It would be cool to build a plexiglass test rig that could simulate the interior volume of a tire, to see how fluid behaves under rotation with that air pocket at the top. I may pitch that idea to the next intern I get.... They are suckers for lab projects like that. And in case you think I am nuts, here's what flow looks like inside the annular space between two counter-rotating cylinders in a certain speed range:

Taylor Couette Flows - YouTube

Interesting things happen when you start rotating fluids inside confined spaces.

Now we may know why Jupiter looks like it does. The crush of its gravity along with the heat of its gasses might be causing this annular containment of its gaseous atmoshere. You add the spin to the planet and it sorta looks like the container

 

[s219]

If the density of a gas with sufficient pressure creates a greater density than the liquid in the same container, it could never hold the liquid up? Would it even be possible to over come the density of the liquid without a total intermingling of the gas and liquid under such pressures?

Lets just generalize it to two fluids (which can be liquids or gasses -- don't get hung up on one or the other). The less dense of the two will always be on top, and the more dense will always be on the bottom. If they are of equal density, they can intermingle, but will not necessarily mix. If the density ratio of the two were changed gradually and gently enough through the crossover point, the liquids would trade places very gently. They will settle back out to an equilibrium if left alone under static conditions.

So yes, air pressurized to a higher density than a liquid would fall to the bottom of a tire, while the liquid would go to the top. That's where the 16,000 psi requirement comes in. But that won't lock the air/liquid in place like a solid or cause them to rotate with the tire like a solid. They are still fluids and will still flow. The tire will rotate around inner fluid contents, creating some sort of stirred/sloshed fluid motions on the inside, with speeds varying from tire speed to zero.

That's why you should think about them as two different fluids. The basic physics of the internal flow is going to be the same no matter which one is on the top or bottom.

 

[arrow]

Lets just generalize it to two fluids (which can be liquids or gasses -- don't get hung up on one or the other). The less dense of the two will always be on top, and the more dense will always be on the bottom. If they are of equal density, they can intermingle, but will not necessarily mix. If the density ratio of the two were changed gradually and gently enough through the crossover point, the liquids would trade places very gently. They will settle back out to an equilibrium if left alone under static conditions.

So yes, air pressurized to a higher density than a liquid would fall to the bottom of a tire, while the liquid would go to the top. That's where the 16,000 psi requirement comes in. But that won't lock the air/liquid in place like a solid or cause them to rotate with the tire like a solid. They are still fluids and will still flow. The tire will rotate around inner fluid contents, creating some sort of stirred/sloshed fluid motions on the inside, with speeds varying from tire speed to zero.

That's why you should think about them as two different fluids. The basic physics of the internal flow is going to be the same no matter which one is on the top or bottom.

Does the shape of the container make any difference? I mean a tire is basically a tunnel providing a space for rotation. What happens when this is going on within an upright cylinder?

 

[s219]

Does the shape of the container make any difference? I mean a tire is basically a tunnel providing a space for rotation. What happens when this is going on within an upright cylinder?

The physics are independent of the container. We're talking about basic laws of nature here.

 

[arrow]

The physics are independent of the container. We're talking about basic laws of nature here.

Ok gotcha. The more dense fluid will always rotate and fall to the bottom. (except I am having a difficult time envisioning this in a container that was air tight with no remaining air space and how the transfer would then take place ) but hey, it wouldn't be the first time a perceived logic supersedes actual mechanical dynamics for me.
Its like when I first heard that a bullet dropped from the barrel of the gun that was fired simultaneously, that the two projectiles would hit the ground at around the same time. My first reaction was: "huh, that can't be?"
Anyway 219, thanks for being patient with me and remaining a gentleman about it.

 

[Santa Craig Cringle]

My Kioti CX2510 just started leaking green fluid from the rear tire today as I was pushing snow around. First time this has ever happened to me. Have had the tractor three years but only 45 hours on it (I just bought land so I expect to really start putting the hours on)

I didn’t know what to do. Parked it and it was peeing out. Rotated the leak to the top and then got on this thread. By the time I got back out there the tire was noticeably flattening. Decided to air it up to 50 psi and the leak stopped.

Now I gotta watch to see if it’s going to leak air.

I was going to do the 50 hour service myself but if I have to haul it in for a tire issue I may just have the dealer do it. Unfortunately I don’t have a trailer to haul it (yet) but if I have the dealer come get it for service maybe he’ll cut me a break on the trailering.

Timing sucks. I’m getting ready to build a house on that land and I’ve been looking for a good trailer deal to take the tractor out there and brush hog it. Now I’m in kind of a pickle. And of course during Alabama’s snowpocalypse right now my dealer won’t pick up the phone.

 

[beenthere]

How low was the air pressure in the tire when the leak started? Low pressure may have caused the rim/tire seal to break enough to allow the Rimguard to ooze out. Observe how 50 psi solves the problem.
But also, you may have a leak in your tire.. Now is the time to keep an eye on it at 50 psi to track that possibility.

Around here, there are tire repair business's that will come to the site of the tractor to service a tire. Might be a good thing for you, not having to sweat getting the tractor to a dealer. But again, any service doesn't come at a cost.

 

[Santa Craig Cringle]

How low was the air pressure in the tire when the leak started? Low pressure may have caused the rim/tire seal to break enough to allow the Rimguard to ooze out. Observe how 50 psi solves the problem.
But also, you may have a leak in your tire.. Now is the time to keep an eye on it at 50 psi to track that possibility.

Around here, there are tire repair business's that will come to the site of the tractor to service a tire. Might be a good thing for you, not having to sweat getting the tractor to a dealer. But again, any service doesn't come at a cost.

Honestly I’m not sure. I didn’t look before I hopped on. The other side is at 16 psi.

 

[Brown Dog]

Most ppl don’t run enough pressure with fluid filled & they leak around the bead.

I’d think 20psi would be the bare bone’s minimum to keep the bead seated.

 

[arrow]

Most ppl don’t run enough pressure with fluid filled & they leak around the bead.

I’d think 20psi would be the bare bone’s minimum to keep the bead seated.

The actuality is a liquid filled tire tire should be able to run at any pressure IF the bead is seated properly in the first place.
What happens is and what Ive seen, the installer may devoid the tire of air thinking it fills faster from his pump. He then fails to air up the tire or insufficiently airs up after he fills. The tractor owner proceeds to use his tractor and eventually, the usage of the tractor loosens the seal around the tire
and the stuff begins to flow out. Tire size also comes into play with taller tires more susceptible to this event. Ive always have been a proponent of filling tires with tube installation no matter what the fluid ballast is but seeing the move toward non caustic ballast, this may be dinosaurus thinking on my part.
Ive even seen where the ballast installer airs up one tire and forgets to air the other. Ive measured 6 lbs on one side and 22 on the other. Guess which tire was leaking.
I would follow BD's advice and air your tires to maximum as listed on tire. If you see a middle of tire wear pattern, you can air down a bit especially if ride becomes uncomfortable. If it still leaks, you can possibly have a dented rim or the tire bead itself has been compromised.
From my experience, unless schooled otherwise by family, 18 to 25 yr olds these days are hard pressed to possess a solid work ethic.
They are very good at using their thumbs however.