horsepower vs. durability

[vtsnowedin]

that 2.9 3cyl has been around since Jesus was a kid. It was in tractors BEFORE the 5000 series was introduced in the mid 90's (I just can't recall the model numbers right off hand). Durability of that specific engine wouldn't even be a question for me, it's tried and true and then some. They haven't recently turbo'ed those engines either, if I recall correctly the engine was turbo'ed in various models (5400, 5320, 5310, the late 500'3 series and now the 5D/E series). As for the 9/3 suny shuttle, that transmission is in applications all the way up to 90hp so no worries about putting too much strain on it either. This engine and tranny combo has been around for years, and years, and years. I had a JD engineer that worked on the early design team of the 5003 series tell me that basically all they did was put a 5000/5010/5020 drivetrain into the tractors which made the price "cheaper" since it was not the newest and latest design by Deere. The rear end of your tractor is the same rear end that was in the early 5000 series tractors too. So basically you have a drivetrain that was used in the mid 90's and is still being used today. Deere just switched to a 4cyl and 5 cyl engines in the upscale utility tractors when they brought out the 5420/5520/5025 series and 5m series. I think the 5500 and 5510 were 4 cyl too.

The engine, tranny, and rear end was one of the things that drove me to purchase this tractor because I knew the history of it and how long it had been around and was proven.

Well ayah the reputation of this line is excellent, that's why I bought one.:thumbsup:
I'm just doing some mental puttering here rather then start harassing my dealer about where my tractor is or fretting about how high the brush is getting.
I was just getting into which of the three setups wore out first and by how much. People say there isn't much difference between them which may be true but how is that possible ? One thing that has occurred to me after I started the thread is that the higher HP tractor isn't under higher or maximum loads all the time. Side by side at constant idle they would wear out at the same very very slow rate. Put a 45 on to a 45HP constant load and the 75 on a constant load of 75HP and I think the 75 will give up first. But in the real world your tractor spends quite a bit of time idling and pulling lessor loads. It is only the steep hills with the big load behind or that big round baler that strain her to the max and that is where the extra or accelerated wear would happen. The amount of full loading an individual tractor would receive would vary from owner to owner and farm to farm so there is no way to pin that down. Might come down to an equation summing engine hours times the square of the horsepower load for each hour with a fudge factor for oil and coolant temp.
Of course in the real world it comes down to keeping good oil in the crankcase and keeping the wheels pointed down.

 

[PioneerMan]

This has been extensively discussed in on road applications. My understanding is, along what has been mentioned, it is more about fuel use than small technical details. And in these machines, the differences are relatively small for the engines. I.e. triple an engines rated power and then think about longevity. For us, I don't see an issue. Perhaps a higher rated engine uses 10% more fuel, and 'might' last 90% as long. On a 20,000 hr engine do you care?

 

[vtsnowedin]

This has been extensively discussed in on road applications. My understanding is, along what has been mentioned, it is more about fuel use than small technical details. And in these machines, the differences are relatively small for the engines. I.e. triple an engines rated power and then think about longevity. For us, I don't see an issue. Perhaps a higher rated engine uses 10% more fuel, and 'might' last 90% as long. On a 20,000 hr engine do you care?

Well of course I care.!! It's my money after all. There must be a point where moving up to the next class of tractor actually saves money for the user. Having factual information about each model and configuration would be the only way for a user to pick the most profitable machine for his business. What you actually get to look at leaves a lot to be desired. But on the other hand that gap is what brings many people to this forum as they seek out better information before they buy.

 

[Verticaltrx]

Well of course I care.!! It's my money after all. There must be a point where moving up to the next class of tractor actually saves money for the user. Having factual information about each model and configuration would be the only way for a user to pick the most profitable machine for his business. What you actually get to look at leaves a lot to be desired. But on the other hand that gap is what brings many people to this forum as they seek out better information before they buy.

Are you honestly planning on putting 10,000+ hrs on this tractor? If not it is a moot point IMO.

 

[PioneerMan]

I am not sure exactly why this matters so much to you. 20,000 hr life, which is a randomly selected number, is 2.2 years of conintinous service, or roughly 10 years of full time commercial use (8hrs, 5 days a week). At which point, the engine, nor the tractor will owe you anything and an engine rebuild will just be another check to write because you will have replaced everything else. Unless you plan on living off grid on a pto generator. But by then you will also have spent what, $100k in diesel?

I doubt you are mad at me, but I can make the analogy of how I am I am currently trading my old diesel truck. Why should I get a motor that goes 350-500k between rebuilds when I put on 10k a year and the truck is very devalued by 100k miles. I hear that there are many old diesels still going strong in other applications, when the truck they were put in has long since bit the dust...

 

[PioneerMan]

And yes, more data on mean time before failures would be nice, for all parts of the tractor. I am sure there are mountains of data to determine warranties, handle claims, etc. but that is the curse of the consumer...)

 

[vtsnowedin]

I plan on owning this tractor for the rest of my years ,hopefully twenty five or better, then pass it on to a grandchild still in good working order. There are some what ifs in that, there hasn't been a grandchild born yet for one thing but things will work out or they won't.
I'm just thinking about how best to keep it in good working order for my benefit as much as a future owner and again this is just a exercise to keep me busy while I wait for that slow boat from India. I'm also planning on building a barn to store it and the other equipment and toys in as a top priority.
Diesel engines in a truck driven on salted highways will often outlast the truck but a tractor is different in that there is no body to rust out and unless you crack open a housing you can rebuild engine, tranny and rear ends several times each. There are a lot of old tractors out there but few with working hour meters so I don't know how common a 10,000hr tractor is that hasn't been rebuilt. I expect that tractors today have a much better chance of making it to 10,000 as the manufacturing tolerances of the critical engine parts are much closer now and lubricating oils are much improved as well.
Construction equipment wears out differently and if varies from machine to machine. Graders have shims in the connection points of the blade pistons. As the joint wears a shim is taken out to tighten the joint and when you get down to the last shim you can cut off the joint and weld on a new one but by then the whole machine is tired and usually they get scrapped. bulldozers wear out track parts constantly. I was once told that a D8 loses fifty pounds a day to wear when working in sand and rock.
And then you have the advances in technology making the equipment you have obsolete long before it is worn out. The grader and dozer on the job I am presently working on both have air conditioned cabs and a GPS system that has the entire plan for the job in there memory and the operators can dial in what layer they are on and the blade will control itself. The old style grader and the man who ran it and wouldn't adapt to the new tech. have been parked.
Back in '75 I was on a farm in North Dakota where the farmer had all his old equipment parked in a neat line. One of the things was a model A with a sheet metal roof that he and his brother had gone to school in years ago. Further down the line was a case tractor about 100 HP that was all good to my eye. I asked the farmer what was wrong with it? He said nothing except it wasn't big enough to compete with the bigger tractors so running it wasn't profitable. Probably still sitting there.

 

[Verticaltrx]

I plan on owning this tractor for the rest of my years ,hopefully twenty five or better, then pass it on to a grandchild still in good working order. There are some what ifs in that, there hasn't been a grandchild born yet for one thing but things will work out or they won't.
I'm just thinking about how best to keep it in good working order for my benefit as much as a future owner and again this is just a exercise to keep me busy while I wait for that slow boat from India.

If you plan on keeping it that long and putting substantial hours on it you'll probably have to do some overhaul work at one point or another. Age is another factor you must consider, not just hours. Once a tractor reaches a certain age a lot of the hoses, gaskets, seals, etc start to go bad. We have a mid-70's IH 454 diesel with about 7,000hrs on it. A couple years ago it needed an engine rebuild because the o-rings around the wet sleeves finally gave way and let water into the oil. It didn't do any physical damage to the motor (we caught it quickly) and the tractor was in good mechanical shape, probably would have run many more hours without a rebuild. But, since the motor had to be torn down anyways, we went ahead and did a full rebuild and installed a new clutch.

Another example, we have a '85 Deere 2550 that has less than 3000hrs. We've had to replace several hydraulic hoses in the past couple years, the rubber hyd. pump drive coupler and a few seals in the 3pt hitch/lower transmission housing. All these went bad for no other reason than age.

Now, if you want to talk about tractors with a lot of hours, my uncle has a couple old Allis-Chalmers (D17 series IV and 170) with between 20,000-30,000hrs on each. They are gas powered and have had the engine rebuilt 3-4 times, multiple clutches, a little transmission work, etc. If you really want to run a tractor for that many hours/years you'll have to do some work to them.

 

[vtsnowedin]

If you really want to run a tractor for that many hours/years you'll have to do some work to them.

I won't have a problem with that but whenever you face a major rebuild you do consider just putting the money towards a new one. That's what keeps the people at the factories spirits up.
Any thoughts on how to maximise the lifespan of the gaskets, seals and hoses that seem to be the weakest link in the tractors parts chain?

 

[Verticaltrx]

I won't have a problem with that but whenever you face a major rebuild you do consider just putting the money towards a new one. That's what keeps the people at the factories spirits up.
Any thoughts on how to maximise the lifespan of the gaskets, seals and hoses that seem to be the weakest link in the tractors parts chain?

For starters, keep OEM fluids and filters in them. Some of the trouble with the 2550 started when we used cheap off-brand hyd. fluid. Other than that, just service it regularly.