horsepower vs. durability

[vtsnowedin]

While I'm waiting for my 5045E to get here on a slow boat from India I've had time to read through all of the brochure and spec sheets on the 5 series tractors. One question comes to mind. Does increasing the horsepower of a given block by changing the turbo and injector settings reduce the expected lifespan of the engine and if it does by how much.
Consider the Power Tech 3029. It is 179 cu. in. block that you can get in four different horse power configurations 45, 55, 65, and 75 all at the same rated engine RPM of 2400. To my basic six grade math mind that means that every power-stroke of the 75 exerts 145% of the force that a 45 does on the same sized crank shaft and main bearings. As the engine parts must be sized to take the stresses of 75 HP operation using them at a reduced 45HP settings should reduce wear and fatigue stresses and hence the engine of a 45 should last quite a bit longer. Also strain and impact loads transmitted to the transmission and the other drive line parts would also vary with the horsepower being applied to the system.
The question really is how much does this amount to in real in the field applications. Also I realise that a foolish throttle jockey could hammer a 45 into submission trying to make it do the work of a 75 and an experienced operator of a 75 would work it for thousands of hours without ever over stressing anything knowing that if the job is too big the cheapest thing is to get a bigger tractor.
Anybody have any experience or facts and figures on the durability to horsepower ratio?

 

[jonyyuma]

Do you know that the bearings and all other components are the same for the lower powered blocks? A good turbo-powered engine will have define up grades to it internally.. For instance, oil jets fitted to spray the pistons and bore with oil instead of bleed-off or slinging??The pistons will be re-inforced and have passges for the sprayed oil and cooling and will the head gasket, be the same on all engines..How about he waterpump??Just askin..??

 

[Verticaltrx]

Do you know that the bearings and all other components are the same for the lower powered blocks? A good turbo-powered engine will have define up grades to it internally.. For instance, oil jets fitted to spray the pistons and bore with oil instead of bleed-off or slinging??The pistons will be re-inforced and have passges for the sprayed oil and cooling and will the head gasket, be the same on all engines..How about he waterpump??Just askin..??

I would be really surprised if there is anything internal different about the engines. A quick check of the parts book could confirm this, but I haven't time to look now.

With that said, my guess is the engines are designed for the 75hp level and detuned for the lower power outputs. There might be an increase in longevity in the lower power models (there will be in the clutch and powertrain), but my guess is it will be slight. Also, I doubt you'd see any differences until you get towards the 10,000hr mark.

Something I will be interested to see is the difference in longevity now that all the models in that series are turbocharged, whereas the smaller ones used to be naturally aspirated.

 

[vtsnowedin]

Do you know that the bearings and all other components are the same for the lower powered blocks? A good turbo-powered engine will have define up grades to it internally.. For instance, oil jets fitted to spray the pistons and bore with oil instead of bleed-off or slinging??The pistons will be re-inforced and have passges for the sprayed oil and cooling and will the head gasket, be the same on all engines..How about he waterpump??Just askin..??

No I don't know that for sure but I expect that Verticaltrx has the right answer on that. I'm not sure why he thinks the wear out time difference is small. Perhaps that although the bearings are wearing more slowly things like gaskets and hoses are still getting the same amount of sun and rain and the first thing that fails is what makes it fail. The 75's die one way the 45's another.

 

[tcartwri]

RPM is way more significant than the ultimate power output in the durability of an engine.

 

[vtsnowedin]

RPM is way more significant than the ultimate power output in the durability of an engine.

Well yes putting an engine up near it's red line wears it out but all of these options are rated at the same 2400RPM and it is the difference in force applied on each power stroke from the piston top face through the connecting rod to the crank bearings that creates the wear. The engine does not increase RPMs to put out more HP just applies more fuel air mixture to each power stroke to maintain 2400 under increased load. The 45 will run out of ability sooner and begin to lug down and force the operator to select a lower gear. The 75 will pound the bejesus out of the rod bearings and the mains while it maintains 2400RPM under the 45% higher load it is rated for before it begins to lug down.
I suppose it would take multiple engine tear-downs at 5000 hours to measure the difference in wear between the various options. If JD or anyone else has done that I expect they hold the data quite close to the chest and use it for future designs while not scaring the owners of product already in the field.

 

[tcartwri]

Well yes putting an engine up near it's red line wears it out but all of these options are rated at the same 2400RPM and it is the difference in force applied on each power stroke from the piston top face through the connecting rod to the crank bearings that creates the wear.

Those loads are insignificant in comparison to rotational forces. Usually you find the limit in a diesel when the head gasket can't hold the cylinder pressure from the boost of the turbo(s)

 

[RollingsFarms]

that 2.9 3cyl has been around since Jesus was a kid. It was in tractors BEFORE the 5000 series was introduced in the mid 90's (I just can't recall the model numbers right off hand). Durability of that specific engine wouldn't even be a question for me, it's tried and true and then some. They haven't recently turbo'ed those engines either, if I recall correctly the engine was turbo'ed in various models (5400, 5320, 5310, the late 500'3 series and now the 5D/E series). As for the 9/3 suny shuttle, that transmission is in applications all the way up to 90hp so no worries about putting too much strain on it either. This engine and tranny combo has been around for years, and years, and years. I had a JD engineer that worked on the early design team of the 5003 series tell me that basically all they did was put a 5000/5010/5020 drivetrain into the tractors which made the price "cheaper" since it was not the newest and latest design by Deere. The rear end of your tractor is the same rear end that was in the early 5000 series tractors too. So basically you have a drivetrain that was used in the mid 90's and is still being used today. Deere just switched to a 4cyl and 5 cyl engines in the upscale utility tractors when they brought out the 5420/5520/5025 series and 5m series. I think the 5500 and 5510 were 4 cyl too.

The engine, tranny, and rear end was one of the things that drove me to purchase this tractor because I knew the history of it and how long it had been around and was proven.

 

[AKfish]

In many cases, Deere engineers (and other manufacturer's as well) test and trial the basic engine in numerous horsepower configurations. That provides a baseline understanding of power output versus longevity or Mean Time Before Failure - MTBF.

I recently bought a 5075M with a 5030T powerplant. The engine is a 5 cylinder variant of the 4000 series engine - 4024T - which is a 4 cylinder model. Identical bore x stroke for both engines.

Nonetheless, I was interested in longevity and what other horsepower configurations as well as what other uses that Deere has used the 5030T powerplant.

Come to find out; the engine has been put into service @ 99 horsepower and used in standby power generators, skid steers, and I believe some of the older excavators.

I was greatly reassured that working my tractor at 75hp would not likely jepordize the life of the engine.

That said; I'd be very surprised that your 179 cu. in. engine is only ever been operational at 45hp, 55hp, 65hp and 75hp. I'd bet that the "white coat" back room boys have fired up that engine in more horsepower flavors than that!! :thumbsup:

And they know from experience; even @ 75hp the engine is gonna outlast the clutch, the hydraulic pump, the water pump; probably the front and rear differentials and the transmission!! All of those components with likely have to be repaired or replaced long before the engine signs off...

AKfish

 

[vtsnowedin]

Those loads are insignificant in comparison to rotational forces. Usually you find the limit in a diesel when the head gasket can't hold the cylinder pressure from the boost of the turbo(s)

I hadn't thought of it that way. The head gasket either holds the pressure or it doesn't. The pressure on the head and it's gasket would be equal and opposite to the pressure sent down the connecting rod. But the rod bearing is a much smaller area to absorb that force.??? Then you have that the rod bearings are bathed in relatively cool lubricating oil while the face of the head and the gasket work at temps just under red hot. They need to have the radiator sized right for 75 HP loads on a Texas summer day.
Interesting.

 

[vtsnowedin]

that 2.9 3cyl has been around since Jesus was a kid. It was in tractors BEFORE the 5000 series was introduced in the mid 90's (I just can't recall the model numbers right off hand). Durability of that specific engine wouldn't even be a question for me, it's tried and true and then some. They haven't recently turbo'ed those engines either, if I recall correctly the engine was turbo'ed in various models (5400, 5320, 5310, the late 500'3 series and now the 5D/E series). As for the 9/3 suny shuttle, that transmission is in applications all the way up to 90hp so no worries about putting too much strain on it either. This engine and tranny combo has been around for years, and years, and years. I had a JD engineer that worked on the early design team of the 5003 series tell me that basically all they did was put a 5000/5010/5020 drivetrain into the tractors which made the price "cheaper" since it was not the newest and latest design by Deere. The rear end of your tractor is the same rear end that was in the early 5000 series tractors too. So basically you have a drivetrain that was used in the mid 90's and is still being used today. Deere just switched to a 4cyl and 5 cyl engines in the upscale utility tractors when they brought out the 5420/5520/5025 series and 5m series. I think the 5500 and 5510 were 4 cyl too.

The engine, tranny, and rear end was one of the things that drove me to purchase this tractor because I knew the history of it and how long it had been around and was proven.

Well ayah the reputation of this line is excellent, that's why I bought one.:thumbsup:
I'm just doing some mental puttering here rather then start harassing my dealer about where my tractor is or fretting about how high the brush is getting.
I was just getting into which of the three setups wore out first and by how much. People say there isn't much difference between them which may be true but how is that possible ? One thing that has occurred to me after I started the thread is that the higher HP tractor isn't under higher or maximum loads all the time. Side by side at constant idle they would wear out at the same very very slow rate. Put a 45 on to a 45HP constant load and the 75 on a constant load of 75HP and I think the 75 will give up first. But in the real world your tractor spends quite a bit of time idling and pulling lessor loads. It is only the steep hills with the big load behind or that big round baler that strain her to the max and that is where the extra or accelerated wear would happen. The amount of full loading an individual tractor would receive would vary from owner to owner and farm to farm so there is no way to pin that down. Might come down to an equation summing engine hours times the square of the horsepower load for each hour with a fudge factor for oil and coolant temp.
Of course in the real world it comes down to keeping good oil in the crankcase and keeping the wheels pointed down.

 

[PioneerMan]

This has been extensively discussed in on road applications. My understanding is, along what has been mentioned, it is more about fuel use than small technical details. And in these machines, the differences are relatively small for the engines. I.e. triple an engines rated power and then think about longevity. For us, I don't see an issue. Perhaps a higher rated engine uses 10% more fuel, and 'might' last 90% as long. On a 20,000 hr engine do you care?

 

[vtsnowedin]

This has been extensively discussed in on road applications. My understanding is, along what has been mentioned, it is more about fuel use than small technical details. And in these machines, the differences are relatively small for the engines. I.e. triple an engines rated power and then think about longevity. For us, I don't see an issue. Perhaps a higher rated engine uses 10% more fuel, and 'might' last 90% as long. On a 20,000 hr engine do you care?

Well of course I care.!! It's my money after all. There must be a point where moving up to the next class of tractor actually saves money for the user. Having factual information about each model and configuration would be the only way for a user to pick the most profitable machine for his business. What you actually get to look at leaves a lot to be desired. But on the other hand that gap is what brings many people to this forum as they seek out better information before they buy.

 

[Verticaltrx]

Well of course I care.!! It's my money after all. There must be a point where moving up to the next class of tractor actually saves money for the user. Having factual information about each model and configuration would be the only way for a user to pick the most profitable machine for his business. What you actually get to look at leaves a lot to be desired. But on the other hand that gap is what brings many people to this forum as they seek out better information before they buy.

Are you honestly planning on putting 10,000+ hrs on this tractor? If not it is a moot point IMO.

 

[PioneerMan]

I am not sure exactly why this matters so much to you. 20,000 hr life, which is a randomly selected number, is 2.2 years of conintinous service, or roughly 10 years of full time commercial use (8hrs, 5 days a week). At which point, the engine, nor the tractor will owe you anything and an engine rebuild will just be another check to write because you will have replaced everything else. Unless you plan on living off grid on a pto generator. But by then you will also have spent what, $100k in diesel?

I doubt you are mad at me, but I can make the analogy of how I am I am currently trading my old diesel truck. Why should I get a motor that goes 350-500k between rebuilds when I put on 10k a year and the truck is very devalued by 100k miles. I hear that there are many old diesels still going strong in other applications, when the truck they were put in has long since bit the dust...

 

[PioneerMan]

And yes, more data on mean time before failures would be nice, for all parts of the tractor. I am sure there are mountains of data to determine warranties, handle claims, etc. but that is the curse of the consumer...)

 

[vtsnowedin]

I plan on owning this tractor for the rest of my years ,hopefully twenty five or better, then pass it on to a grandchild still in good working order. There are some what ifs in that, there hasn't been a grandchild born yet for one thing but things will work out or they won't.
I'm just thinking about how best to keep it in good working order for my benefit as much as a future owner and again this is just a exercise to keep me busy while I wait for that slow boat from India. I'm also planning on building a barn to store it and the other equipment and toys in as a top priority.
Diesel engines in a truck driven on salted highways will often outlast the truck but a tractor is different in that there is no body to rust out and unless you crack open a housing you can rebuild engine, tranny and rear ends several times each. There are a lot of old tractors out there but few with working hour meters so I don't know how common a 10,000hr tractor is that hasn't been rebuilt. I expect that tractors today have a much better chance of making it to 10,000 as the manufacturing tolerances of the critical engine parts are much closer now and lubricating oils are much improved as well.
Construction equipment wears out differently and if varies from machine to machine. Graders have shims in the connection points of the blade pistons. As the joint wears a shim is taken out to tighten the joint and when you get down to the last shim you can cut off the joint and weld on a new one but by then the whole machine is tired and usually they get scrapped. bulldozers wear out track parts constantly. I was once told that a D8 loses fifty pounds a day to wear when working in sand and rock.
And then you have the advances in technology making the equipment you have obsolete long before it is worn out. The grader and dozer on the job I am presently working on both have air conditioned cabs and a GPS system that has the entire plan for the job in there memory and the operators can dial in what layer they are on and the blade will control itself. The old style grader and the man who ran it and wouldn't adapt to the new tech. have been parked.
Back in '75 I was on a farm in North Dakota where the farmer had all his old equipment parked in a neat line. One of the things was a model A with a sheet metal roof that he and his brother had gone to school in years ago. Further down the line was a case tractor about 100 HP that was all good to my eye. I asked the farmer what was wrong with it? He said nothing except it wasn't big enough to compete with the bigger tractors so running it wasn't profitable. Probably still sitting there.

 

[Verticaltrx]

I plan on owning this tractor for the rest of my years ,hopefully twenty five or better, then pass it on to a grandchild still in good working order. There are some what ifs in that, there hasn't been a grandchild born yet for one thing but things will work out or they won't.
I'm just thinking about how best to keep it in good working order for my benefit as much as a future owner and again this is just a exercise to keep me busy while I wait for that slow boat from India.

If you plan on keeping it that long and putting substantial hours on it you'll probably have to do some overhaul work at one point or another. Age is another factor you must consider, not just hours. Once a tractor reaches a certain age a lot of the hoses, gaskets, seals, etc start to go bad. We have a mid-70's IH 454 diesel with about 7,000hrs on it. A couple years ago it needed an engine rebuild because the o-rings around the wet sleeves finally gave way and let water into the oil. It didn't do any physical damage to the motor (we caught it quickly) and the tractor was in good mechanical shape, probably would have run many more hours without a rebuild. But, since the motor had to be torn down anyways, we went ahead and did a full rebuild and installed a new clutch.

Another example, we have a '85 Deere 2550 that has less than 3000hrs. We've had to replace several hydraulic hoses in the past couple years, the rubber hyd. pump drive coupler and a few seals in the 3pt hitch/lower transmission housing. All these went bad for no other reason than age.

Now, if you want to talk about tractors with a lot of hours, my uncle has a couple old Allis-Chalmers (D17 series IV and 170) with between 20,000-30,000hrs on each. They are gas powered and have had the engine rebuilt 3-4 times, multiple clutches, a little transmission work, etc. If you really want to run a tractor for that many hours/years you'll have to do some work to them.

 

[vtsnowedin]

If you really want to run a tractor for that many hours/years you'll have to do some work to them.

I won't have a problem with that but whenever you face a major rebuild you do consider just putting the money towards a new one. That's what keeps the people at the factories spirits up.
Any thoughts on how to maximise the lifespan of the gaskets, seals and hoses that seem to be the weakest link in the tractors parts chain?

 

[Verticaltrx]

I won't have a problem with that but whenever you face a major rebuild you do consider just putting the money towards a new one. That's what keeps the people at the factories spirits up.
Any thoughts on how to maximise the lifespan of the gaskets, seals and hoses that seem to be the weakest link in the tractors parts chain?

For starters, keep OEM fluids and filters in them. Some of the trouble with the 2550 started when we used cheap off-brand hyd. fluid. Other than that, just service it regularly.