LMan1967
Gold Member
game camera.
How accurate is a property line survey?
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smstonypoint
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Have you talked to your neighbor about this issue? He may think he is doing you a favor by cutting your grass.
Steve
newbury
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Thoughts -
You resurrected a 4 year old zombie thread.
If he is coming on YOUR SIDE of the fence and moving YOUR sign first ask him nicely to STOP.
I've a neighbor who is a proverbial pain. She actually had the gall to have MY mulberry tree hacked down from about 20' tall to 5' because she "didn't like the seeds" coming on her property. This was about 6 years ago.
Virtually all the houses in the area have a 4' tall chain link fence. They tore down MY fence when I was away and put up a 7' tall wood privacy fence.
Last year the female dog stops me as I'm driving on the street and asks me to cut the tree down because it has grown back up. I tell her NO.
She called twice more. I'm keeping a camera on it in case.
Her only child (a true babied brat) often "loses" soccer balls over the 7' tall wooden fence. Even though my lot is all mowed and only about 1/8 acre back there for some reason I can never find them.
So first try to be nice and speak to him with a witness present., And document, document, document. Get movies.
Raider43
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Tractor888,
I read your first post and not any of the others. I am a licensed surveyor in private business for over 30 years experience. Your best bet is to call the surveyor who staked the line and ask him what the tolerance is. It may be within a quarter inch or a couple of inches, but no more off then that. When you call them ask them how accurate it is and that you are thinking of contracting with another surveyor to check his work. When you call your surveyor have him call surveyor one and get the answer for you also. Get it in writing how close your fence is and act accordingly. The line about taking you to court, I would not worry about. If the fence is old let him take it down, if not, you should be given at least 30 days to move it.
Raider43
I read your first post and not any of the others. I am a licensed surveyor in private business for over 30 years experience. Your best bet is to call the surveyor who staked the line and ask him what the tolerance is. It may be within a quarter inch or a couple of inches, but no more off then that. When you call them ask them how accurate it is and that you are thinking of contracting with another surveyor to check his work. When you call your surveyor have him call surveyor one and get the answer for you also. Get it in writing how close your fence is and act accordingly. The line about taking you to court, I would not worry about. If the fence is old let him take it down, if not, you should be given at least 30 days to move it.
Raider43
Willl
Elite Member
He hasn't posted on here since 06-23-2008, doubt he'll be reading this.
What about the factor of the ground shifting over time, especially on hills? This visibly moves fence post bottoms as the land has shifted. If a corner pin is at a fence post, or as the subject's lot line old split rail fence, what does that do to the accuracy of a new survey versus an old one? Monuments on township section lines or in other locations could also shift in time and they are supposed to be the starting reference point, and were, for the old surveys.
I think I understand the arguments for the accuracy of modern GPS devices compared to the older, and even older methods, but what does that really mean? Isn't it true that the oldest recorded survey prevails
over the newer ones, granted that no one has messed with the pins in the meantime?
With all the current accuracy available the surveys, at least in my state, still indicate so many acres
"more or less"
Just wondering, and with your 30 years in the business seeing a number of developments in instrumentation, what if any of my ramblings above can be explained in layman's language.
George2615
Super Member
Are you sure he's coming on your property?
In a lot of areas a fence erected on property cannot be directly on the line but must be set back off the line. Perhaps this is true in your area and the neighbor is simply mowing his lawn to the actual line.
dodge man
Super Star Member
To answer some of your questions, the ground shifting doesn't move the property corner, although it may move the monument. There is no way to know this for sure other than checking distances and angles. The earth moves, frost can heave monuments, etc. Its always a judgment call on the surveyors part.
The accuracy of of newer equipment, GPS included, rarely has a bearing on a survey. Surveying is about finding evidence, such as monuments, fences, etc and determining boundaries based on the evidence. The equipment is just tools to determine these boundaries. Let me lay one thing to rest, GPS IS NOT MORE ACCURATE. Over very long distances, say several miles, its more accurate, but you don't usually run into long distances on a survey. In short distances, a 25' pocket tape is more accurate. Thats why I don't normally use GPS to do lot surveys. GPS gets usefull for distances that start to get over a few hundred feet long. The big advantage to GPS is you don't have to have line of site between corners, but you do have to have a clear overhead.
A simple example would be a survey done in 1880, and the surveyor says the land was 1000 feet by 1000 feet. This surveyor set stones at the corners. Today I go out and survey the same ground and find all the stones. The land is fenced and follows the locations of the stones. I find the land is 1003.56 feet, by 992.98 feet, by 998.01 feet, by 1008.23 feet. The boundary doesn't shift, the deed doesn't change, but I show the measured distance and how it compares to the old survey. I could survey the same property the following day, and get distances that are different again by a few hundredths of a foot. The truth is, even with modern equipment its hard to be perfect, there is always some error in what we do. The larger the property, the more the error, which is why the acreage always reads plus or minus.
Acreage is also low on the hierarchy of calls. For example natural monuments control over man made monuments, which control over bearings, which control over distances, which control over area, which controls over coordinates.
Hope this answers some of your questions. I'm a land surveyor, but this advice, like any advice on the internet is worth what you paid for it.
Also, I agree with the above post, the fence may be several feet off the line and he may be mowing grouund that is his.
To answer some of your questions, the ground shifting doesn't move the property corner, although it may move the monument. There is no way to know this for sure other than checking distances and angles. The earth moves, frost can heave monuments, etc. Its always a judgment call on the surveyors part.
The accuracy of of newer equipment, GPS included, rarely has a bearing on a survey. Surveying is about finding evidence, such as monuments, fences, etc and determining boundaries based on the evidence. The equipment is just tools to determine these boundaries. Let me lay one thing to rest, GPS IS NOT MORE ACCURATE. Over very long distances, say several miles, its more accurate, but you don't usually run into long distances on a survey. In short distances, a 25' pocket tape is more accurate. Thats why I don't normally use GPS to do lot surveys. GPS gets usefull for distances that start to get over a few hundred feet long. The big advantage to GPS is you don't have to have line of site between corners, but you do have to have a clear overhead.
A simple example would be a survey done in 1880, and the surveyor says the land was 1000 feet by 1000 feet. This surveyor set stones at the corners. Today I go out and survey the same ground and find all the stones. The land is fenced and follows the locations of the stones. I find the land is 1003.56 feet, by 992.98 feet, by 998.01 feet, by 1008.23 feet. The boundary doesn't shift, the deed doesn't change, but I show the measured distance and how it compares to the old survey. I could survey the same property the following day, and get distances that are different again by a few hundredths of a foot. The truth is, even with modern equipment its hard to be perfect, there is always some error in what we do. The larger the property, the more the error, which is why the acreage always reads plus or minus.
Acreage is also low on the hierarchy of calls. For example natural monuments control over man made monuments, which control over bearings, which control over distances, which control over area, which controls over coordinates.
Hope this answers some of your questions. I'm a land surveyor, but this advice, like any advice on the internet is worth what you paid for it.
Also, I agree with the above post, the fence may be several feet off the line and he may be mowing grouund that is his.
Dave,
Thank you for making a clear explanation.
My conclusion of the OP by tractor 888 would be then, that since there was no mention of the recent surveyor finding any old stakes or monuments, he may or may not have found any. If he didn't he must have been working from previous surveys that were made when the land was cut up.
I guess he would have to compare the survey of the 30 year homeowner with the old fence with the old survey of the land adjoining to see if the lines were the same. If they both showed ownership of the
3" in question, then what? Would each survey have to be checked to be sure the distances and points resulted in the starting point and ending point closing together for each property? Then a final decision made by a judge if they took it to court.
Maybe in town, and because the masonry fence appears to be the real issue, but heavens, my hand is wider than 3"
Ron
dodge man
Super Star Member
Thats why 3 inches isn't worth fighting over. Surveying isn't black and white, and surveyors don't always agree. I try not to let that happen, but sometimes it does. I've been to court a few times, and even the person that wins loses when you look at the money they spent.