How accurate is a property line survey?

Charlesaf3 · May 23, 2008

Waiting is not a bad idea.

Understanding what got you into the mess is also a good idea. If someone pissed me off I'd happily spend a bunch of money to piss them off, probably like this guy is doing. Like I said, this doesn't sound like its about the money for him - makes no financial sense to spend $10 to get $5. I'm thinking he's spending $10 to get you at this point, and the $5 is just gravy.

I know every time I put this up you interpret it as me saying you had to go along with him in the first place, but once again that's not at all what I'm saying.

Champy · May 23, 2008

Just to reiterate my prior suggestion....If you cannot (or will not) pay for a survey - or for a lawyer.....I'd recommend a FREE search of the zoning and building codes for your county/township/subdivision. It's entirely possible that you could avoid the 3" property line issue altogether if there is a 3' setback requirement the county can easily enforce "for you".

Good Luck

pappy19 · May 23, 2008

This is a most interesting thread. I deal with this sort of survey and property line issues almost every day. If I had a surveyor tell me that the adjoining property line was 3 inches off, I'd laugh in his face. Even the most sofisticated GPS and lydar instrumets aren't quite that accurate. And even if they were, accurate from what beginning? And how accurate is that beginning point? What is needed if there is really a question of boundary is a "registered" survey, stamped by a registered surveyor. He is then laying his registration on the line along with his survey. If you then have an issue, you can protest to the state survey office that you don't believe the survey is correst. It won't cost you a dime to have the state survey department check his survey for accuracy. Most all surveys that I have seen always say plus or minus and each state has perameters of accuracy. The original 13 colonies all have meets and bounds descriptions and all are nightmares for the surveyor and the landowner. The rest of the states have what is call a "government survey" which is in sections, townships and ranges. The original surveys were done by journeyman surveyors that had the lowest bid, mostly from 1870-1910. None, I repeat, none of the sections are the exact same in size, but each section corner is gosple and all legal descriptions start from a known, found corner. Here the magazine for professional surveyors and they can also answer your questions.

Point of Beginning

zeuspaul · May 23, 2008

Tractor888, You have a legal issue. It doesn't matter how accurate you think the survey may or may not be. You are not licensed to survey. Only a surveyor (and some licensed civil engineers) can survey a property line. He puts his license on the line. It is doubtful a surveyor would indicate an encroachment unless he were confidant. He probably wouldn't lose his license but he may suffer a suspension. If you question the survey only a judge can determine where the property line is. A judge would need evidence indicating that the property line was not where the surveyor indicated it was. The evidence could take many forms but most likely your opinion of where the property line is without substantial supporting evidence would hold little weight.

If you could find an original monument showing the property line in a different place you have a good case. What makes you think the fence was originally on your property? If it wasn't surveyed at construction time and you just think it would have been in the right place that's not good enough.

You could take the legal route but you may not like the results. You may like a judges answer to your problem less than you like your neighbor's answer. Then the only recourse you would have would be another judge!! Do you really want to feed money into the legal system?

Have you seen the survey? It should indicate what was found and what was set. It could give us some clues as to whether or not hiring a surveyor for a second opinion of the property line would be money worth spending.

Doing nothing is an option. What judge will rule that a fence which has been in place for thirty years is in the wrong place?? It may depend on who has the better lawyer. In my opinion it would be best to settle this with your neighbor. Your original thought of trying to prove the accuracies of surveys is a non starter.

Zeuspaul

BungeeII · May 23, 2008

Pappy has given probably the best information I have ever read in a public forum. Like most forums, it'll go virtually unnoticed, but it's good info nonetheless.

Having a survey going back to the known found corner isn't cheap, though. When you hire a surveyor to come out, they're gonna charge you for their service. If it involves going 1/2 mile down the road for the starting point of all the lots on your street, you're gonna pay for it.

MikePA · May 23, 2008

pappy19 said:
Even the most sofisticated GPS and lydar instrumets aren't quite that accurate.

Yes, they are that accurate. Even metal tape and a transit can be that accurate, particularly in a subdivision with relatively short property lines. tractor888 has yet to indicate how long this property line is. Why?

Making such statements only serves to give tractor888 hope that he can state "No survey can be + or - 3 inches in accuracy." He can't say this.

pappy19 said:
And if they were, accurate from what beginning? And how accurate is that beginning point?

This same point has been made numerous times in this thread. For all we know, the surveyor established an accurate property line at the front of the parcel using 2 brass markers, 100 feet apart, embedded in the sidewalk then set up at the corner of the common property line, turned the angle in the deed and then sighted up the line and saw the fence was 3 inches across the line. The net of this is we have yet to be given enough information to draw any conclusions.

tractor888 · May 23, 2008

Thank you "pappy19". It's TBN members like you made posting the question here worthwhile.

Yes. The information "pappy19" provided here not only gave me hope but help me find all the facts and where to look for help. Now I learned that a licensed land surveyor is not god. He's humand and made mistakes just like anyone else. Some are just plain criminals and unethical. While looking for the state survey office to file a protest as sugguested by pappy19, I found the California Board for Professional Engineers and Land Surveyors. A phone call to the person answered the phone, he did laugh when I mention my problem of 3 inches off by the new survey.

Now the guy who trying to make me mad is going to have to spend a lot more money before he can go any further...

For your reading pleasure, there are plenty of Disciplinary Actions Against those so called licensed land surveyors. Something pretty interesting cases on property lines too.

Disciplinary Actions Against Licensees (M-Z) - California Board for Professional Engineers and Land Surveyors -State of California

Criminal Actions - California Board for Professional Engineers and Land Surveyors -State of California

Egon · May 23, 2008

Pappy did make some positive statements for sure.

orezok · May 23, 2008

Survey is done by very precise instruments by people who may be competent (or not) on a world that is continually changing.

Here in California after a major earthquake, the western side of the fault may move as much as 30' northward. Depending upon what Point of Beginning you use for the next survey, your neighbors property line may be right through the center of your living room. Changes in water table, mining operations etc. all change the earth constantly and any surveyor that states that he hit the EXACT points every time is generally a liar or mis-informed.

About 20 years ago I did a large housing project in a canyon in San Diego. The canyon had more than 100' of loose alluvial material in it. We removed the top 35', recompacted it and then place more than 500,000 CY of additional fill on it. After the completion of grading we started surveying for surface improvements and nothing closed properly. We resurveyed the "point" we had set on an existing street to control the project and discovered that due to loading of the existing ground. The point moved inward toward the canyon center by a foot and dropped 4" (so did all the houses on that street). We check a USGS monument a quarter of a mile away and it moved almost 2".

Bottom line is that the earth is fluid and things change. My experience is that courts will give more weight to an older survey, even when established with inferior equipment, than a current survey.

Do a records search to find if the property has been surveyed previously as it will be a good rebuttal in court (should you end there).

Ronbo · May 23, 2008

County courthouse should have the original and all subsequent deeds on file. It will take some looking. This is what a surveyor would have to do. If the fence is over 6 inches thick and is three inches over the line, wouldn't it also be three inches over onto your side?

I personally wouldn't do anything until you receive something in the mail or delivered to your door saying you are being sued. Why spend money before you need to. Have you seen the survey? It should be a matter of public record. Once again, check the court house.

Ron