Backhoe How Best to Power a Woods Backhoe--PTO or Tractor's Hydraulics?

[My Hoe]

Hi all,

I'm sure this will turn out to be a "rookie question," (as I am a CUT rookie) but here goes anyway, as you guys are a pretty understanding bunch.

I've restarted my tractor search, after too much LIFE got in the way, and I hope to acquire a B3030 Cabbed tractor, and put the Woods BH80-X "Groundbreaker" (8-foot) backhoe on it.

For your easy reference, here is the spec. sheet on this backhoe:
BH80X Backhoes

I would be using Wood's specific-to-the-B3030-subframe, rather than a TPH mount.



Which is the Preferred Way to Power a Backhoe--via PTO-driven Pump, or Via Tractor's Hydraulics?
Wood's specifies you need at least 20-45hp at the PTO. The B3030HSDC has 23 PTO h.p., so that's not an issue, but it raises the question for me: since I was under the impression that most 'hoes ran off of the tractor's hydraulics, I wonder why Woods goes to the trouble of specifying a minimum PTO h.p.?

I asked a Kubota dealer, which is also a Wood's dealer and, despite the man's excellent product knowledge about the tractor itself, he had no idea which way would be preferable, to power the backhoe. Of course, he said he'd look into it, but I'd prefer to hear from you all, whom I trust more than someone chasing a commission, and because I'm sure many of you will have first-hand experience with both.

So I came up with some questions for the assembled Brain Trust:

Which is More Common-Powering a Woods Backhoe with a PTO-driven Pump, or Running OFF of the Tractor's Hydrualics?
a) Relative cost of each method (in terms of having to [presumably] buy a PTO-driven pump)?

b) Noise of each method?

c) Advantages of PTO-driven Hoes?

d) Disadvantages of PTO-driven Hoes?

e) Advantages of Tractor-hydraulics-powered Hoes?

f) Disadvantages of Tractor-hydraulics-powered Hoes?

g) Power/performance of Tractor-hydraulics-powered Hoes?

h) Power/performance of PTO-driven Hoes?

i) Which Will Require the Tractor to Run at a Higher RPM, for a Given Level of Backhoe Performance?



Which Is Easier to Install/Remove?
Regarding the "advantages" and "disadvantages," of each method of powering the backhoe, I'm most concerned about ease of removal and installation, i.e., which TAKES LONGER, which is more difficult, which takes more STRENGTH, which is "greasier," etc....

On this same topic (ease of installation/removal) I had back surgery last year, and my surgeon has me on an embarrassingly-low weight-lifting limit, allegedly for life, so the less "hossing" I have to do, the better. (And, if I may ask, please, kindly, knock, THREE TIMES, on REAL WOOD for me? I'm superstitious or OCD--take your pick--LOL--And Thanks!) Again, I value ease of installation/removal over maximum backhoe performance. As long as I can get respectable/usable digging-performance out of either powering-method, I'll be happy.

I've also been told that this 8' hoe will "throw a B3030 around pretty good, if you're not careful," so again, I'm not thinking performance will be an issue--does that sound right?

I'm less concerned with outright maximum performance of the hoe for another reason, as well: my digging needs are not very prevalent. I plan to use the hoe (with hydraulic thumb) more as a "crane" than as a backhoe, as I'll be lifting parts, equipment, etc..., that I am no longer able to lift physically. So I do not plan to be running at PTO speed for most of my backhoe operation--more like moving large, 36" bucked rounds of firewood onto the (vertical) splitter-foot, loading/unloading mechanical parts to/from my pickup, etc....



Is "Contamination" of the Tractor's Hydraulic Fluid an Issue?
By that I mean, it would seem that the fewer hydraulic "quick-couples" you have to snap on and off, with frequent hoe removal/installation, the better? So that would seem to auger in favor of the PTO-driven 'hoe? Just throwing it out there, as it occurred to me--of course, I'll be as careful as possible when coupling/uncoupling, but I've never used hydraulic quick-couples before--just those on compressed air lines. But I'm not out in a dusty environment, like the midwest, or a desert, for example, so perhaps I'm worried about nothing re: this point? (It wouldn't be the first time... )



Re: Gardening--Which Is Easier to Install/Uninstall the TPH With?
Also, I do envision gardening, and would like to go "old school," with a single or double-bottom plow (never used either), rather than purcha$e a 'tiller, so I anticipate having to install and uninstall my TPH frequently--I'm assuming if I use the PTO to operate the backhoe, that is just one more thing I'll have to couple/decouple, which seems like it would be more work to fuss with, than would just uncoupling some hydraulic lines. Do I have that right?

As I plan to have the hydraulic thumb, I'll already be coupling/uncoupling rear remote hydraulic lines as it is.



Dumber Question--WHICH PTO Is Used?
IF one used the PTO to drive the hoe, I'm assuming it's the REAR PTO one uses, and not the mid-mount PTO, right? Just wondering if there's a long PTO shaft I'd have to lift/lug, etc..., were it to be driven off of the mid-mount PTO?



Relative NOISE of Each Method?
Having said that, I don't like excessive noise, and though I will be wearing 30dba-reduction Peltor 'muffs, I'd still like to know which power option is quieter--the PTO-driven hoe, or running it off of the Tractor's hydraulics? Please comment on engine RPM-related noise vs. tractor-hydraulics "whine" vs. PTO "growl," if any?



Relative VIBRATION of Each Method?
Oh! Please comment on whether using a PTO-driven backhoe will create more VIBRATION than using the Tractor's hydraulics to power the backhoe. I'm already dreading what some members have complained of, re: the four-cylinder Kubota's, i.e., excessive engine vibration. Now, I've read that it's more of an issue with the newer, B3000-based four cylinders, and that even then, it only affects some units, and even then, is allegedly only an issue at PTO-rpm's. However, I have read of some B3030 owners complaining of excessive engine vibration, as well. So if the PTO-driven backhoe will definitely create more vibration/harmonics/resonance/whatever, then that would be a strong incentive for me to avoid the PTO-driven setup.



Last Question: Do I HAVE to Operate the Hoe at PTO Speed?
The Woods manual says "Operate tractor PTO at 540 RPM. Do not exceed."

I only ask because, while I know you should not "lug" an HSD-equipped tractor (and possibly especially a disesel-powered one?) when driving and doing FEL work, or actual backhoe DIGGING, will I DO ANY DAMAGE if I'm running at between an IDLE and, say 1,200 RPM, when I'm doing "fine work," like "craning" engine parts up onto a rack in my barn, where I want slow, fine movements, so I don't do a "jerky-swing" into, say, a parts-rack, and knock it over?

(Because, I cannot imagine that picking up a motorcycle, or the parts thereto, and swinging them, gently, into a storage rack, would even remotely cause a B3030 to "lug," at all--EVEN AT AN IDLE--am I right?)

Btw, the Wood's "Swing Speed Control" is one of the main reasons I want to go with the Woods--and they only offer it on the 8' and larger backhoes. I just don't want to jerkily slam into a parts shelf, or rack, like I say, and knock a bunch of them over, like dominoes, so in addition to keeping the adjustable swing speed set to as slow a speed as possible, I was hoping I could basically let the tractor IDLE, while doing this delicate "parts-picking" or "parts-setting."

Also, is it possible that this warning from Woods (i.e., "Operate tractor PTO at 540 RPM. Do not exceed." ) only applies to a PTO-driven backhoes? And therefore, could low engine speed (possibly as low as an IDLE, for only a few minutes at a time, while "picking" or "setting" parts, be LESS of a problem, or NO PROBLEM WHATSOEVER, if I power the backhoe from the Tractor's hydraulic system, as opposed to a PTO-driven pump?


Or is my delicate "crane work" better suited to a PTO-driven setup? (I'm thinking the Tractor's hydraulic system is the way to go, for this "delicate" work which, again, would be no longer than a few minutes, each time I "picked" or "stored" a part, on a rack).


I hope I've avoided the allegation that I've written the sequel to "War and Peace," by trying to be organized and using subheads, to break up the text into more digestible bites. At least, that was my intent.

Thank you all,

My Hoe

 

[Chilly807]

If the tractor's hydraulic output is high enough, there's no question I'd go with the on-board hydraulics. The PTO driven pumps are a PIA in comparison, and are generally only used in situations where the tractor either has no hydraulics to begin with, or the pump's not rated high enough to do the job. What does the Woods hoe ask for in GPM flow rate? I think I'd try it with the tractor first, I think it'll work just fine. You can add the PTO pump later if you think you need it.

You might want to look into just how much you'll be able to pick up with the hoe, it might be less than you think, especially at full extension. There's a video out there of a Kubota hoe vs. Woods, one of the things Kubota was yakking about was superior lifting capacity. Mind you, they were advertising their own product.

Sean

 

[Baby Grand]

First, this isn't really a rookie question and I'm very thankful that you have devoted a new thread to it.

Second, I want to congratulate you on meticulously organizing your thoughts.
If your garage is anything like your mind, then it must be a very organized place.
The OC brain does seem to have it's advantages; this coming from an ADD reader.

Third, my apologies: I can offer no useful advice, as I have no actual experience at all.

Lastly, this is a series of questions that I have entertained (but never in this organized, concurrent form) for several years, as I have been wanting a hoe for my own tractor and am nearing a point where a decision to buy can be made. In particular, the question of benefits/risks of PTO vs tractor hyd has always mystified me, and in my 5 years of membership I don't remember much discussion on the subject. Now I can look forward hearing from the experts.

-Jim

 

[EE_Bota]

There are folks who will know way more than me but here are my thoughts:

A subframe mounted backhoe will be less "floppy" relative to a 3-pt hitch one.
A pto driven backhoe usually has a completely separate hydraulic system, so a failure that sheds debris will not effect your tractor. And it the backhoe is 3pt hitch mounted, the hoe becomes more versatile than a subframe mounted hoe because you can easily use it on multiple tractors, and with the separate system, you don't even have to worry about what fluids each are running.

To me, the difference is far larger between a hoe and an excavator. So long as we are only looking at hoe to hoe differences, I'd probably go with the versatility of a 3pt mounted separate hydraulic system unit.

My only hoe is a subframe mounted unit, and it has a pto (aux shaft actually) mounted pump. It is sort of the worst of all worlds in some respects, since mine is not a quick detach..I have to drop the entire subframe. Even though it is pinned on with only four pins, I THINK (but do not know) this will be one heck of a nightmare just to get the tractor aligned with all the pins, let alone installing the pins.

I used my brothers Wood's hoe with separate hydraulics and 3-pt mount on his Oliver 550? for around two weeks solid. I liked it, and had no issue. He only dislikes it relative to what an excavator can do, not relative to what another hoe can do.

You need to decide if you want your hoe locked to THAT tractor in some respects. I'm more of a "I have my hoe, I like various tractors" kind of guy.

On a small tractor...you can get more hoe on the tractor in some cases because of the subframe. I searched long and hard for one for my BX2200, and everything remotely serious is a subframe mount at that tiny size of lift capacity and frame strength.

 

[newbury]

Good layout of thought process. I'll do a lot of <snip>s

Which is the Preferred Way to Power a Backhoe--via PTO-driven Pump, or Via Tractor's Hydraulics?

Any way you can.

On this same topic (ease of installation/removal) I had back surgery last year, and my surgeon has me on an embarrassingly-low weight-lifting limit,

Been there three times. Life get's better.

I've also been told that this 8' hoe will "throw a B3030 around pretty good, if you're not careful," so again, I'm not thinking performance will be an issue--does that sound right?

Yup. Lodge the hoe up in a tree and you can probably lift the tractor up.

Re: Gardening--Which Is Easier to Install/Uninstall the TPH With?
As I plan to have the hydraulic thumb, I'll already be coupling/uncoupling rear remote hydraulic lines as it is.

Good with the thumb. It takes me about 10 minutes to hook/unhook. Most of that is re-positioning the tractor. When I can get my hoe on a concrete floor w/ a dolly it'll be quicker.

My tractor - B7610 - is woefully underpowered for my BH70-X, but it can still throw the tractor around like a terrier with a rat.

Buy it, play with it and have fun.
/edit
whoops - I'd vote for the tractor hydraulics

 

[rbargeron]

You have thought this thru quite well - it may be a little disappointing that the answer is much shorter than the question: The only real difference is speed.

A backhoe powered by the tractor's hydraulics will lift with the same force as one that uses a separate pto pump and reservoir. The internal system pumps fewer gpm so it takes longer to fill the cylinders, but the pressure is the same. If the main use is lifting stuff, lower speed is more controllable anyway. Hydraulic pumps are positive displacement type so they develop good pressure even with the engine down near idle. There's no difference in noise between the two pump setups. Unless you take up regular ditch digging, you may never object to the speed of the internal hydraulics.

 

[radioman]

question-
have you priced a B series with woods BH over a TLB B series that already has a BH on it? I think kubota will have a advantage in pricing I believe. The 3030 has thier own BH sub frame that comes off and on in mins just like my BX model and runs off tractor hydrualics. I wouldn't worry about contamination as the QD couplers takes carre of that and it only fits the tractor it comes on. The only advantage of woods is that if you sell your B series, you can still use it on another tractor.
The woods uses the rear pto, not mid as the mid pto rpm's is too high and has different spline.

IMHO, The kubota BH made for b3030 looks neater.

 

[yobo]

I had a B3030 with the Woods 80x and PTO pump. For me, the 80x is too much hoe for the B3030. While the hoe would usually work fine when the stabilizers were down, the rig had a significant top heavy feel when moving around. My wife did not like driving the B3030 because it felt a little spooky. She has no problem running our L3130.

I did not have filled tires because Kubota did not recommend filled tires with their backhoe and that may have had an impact on stability. I started out with a Kubota hoe on the 3030, but traded it in for the Woods. I traded because the Kubota hoe was less beefy than the Woods and most importantly the stabilizers did not provide enough spread, especially on slopes. I traded the B3030 for a L3800HST and had the 80x mounted on it. The difference in stability is unbelievable.

The only thing I don't care for on L3800 is the noise from the hydraulic system. (The L3130 is much quieter than L3800.) The PTO pump works great. In most cases you can run the hoe with tractor running just above idle. I like the pto pump because you don't have to worry about contamination and it is actually easier to take on and off. With a hoe connected to directly to the tractor it can be a pita to reconnect the hoses if bleed down has put pressure on the lines. At least that was my experience with BX22 I had a few years ago.

 

[Chilly807]

I traded because the Kubota hoe was less beefy than the Woods and most importantly the stabilizers did not provide enough spread, especially on slopes. I traded the B3030 for a L3800HST and had the 80x mounted on it. The difference in stability is unbelievable.

Thanks for answering some of the questions I was going to ask in a couple of years time.. I've been thinking about putting a hoe on my L3400, and was on the fence whether to spend the extra for the Kubota BH77 or go with the Woods. I've got to take a look at the seating arrangement on the two machines and figure out which one would suit me better, too. A lot of my work would be around side hills and slopes, so that's good to know.

Sean

 

[J_J]

My Hoe ,

The BH that you referenced, uses the tractor hyd.

The simplest connection is like in the manual. A single hose from the PB outlet on the tractor to the QD at the back of the tractor, and a BH return hose going to the tank.

The PB hose from the FEL would probably connect to the hyd block to power the remotes or 3pt. When you are not using the BH, the PB hose is plugged back into the hyd block for normal operation.

If the GPM's and pressure is equal using tractor hyd, and a PTO pump, then all things should be equal. If one of the systems has more GPM's, it will operate a little faster.

The pressure will be the same as the BH relief will limit the pressure. If the PTO pump can not operate as high as tractor hyd, then the PTO force will be less.

For BH use, disconnect the PB QD hose from the tractor and connect it to the BH pressure IN,

A BH return hose would feed into a tank hose or directly to tank.

Top off the fluid in the reservoir as the BH will fill up the BH cyls.