Generator Should I change my PTO generator from Bonded Neutral to Floating Neutral?

   / Should I change my PTO generator from Bonded Neutral to Floating Neutral? #31  
Good debate. I see people debating the pros/cons that I wrote of in my inital post ( #2).

Situation where JpC junior is correct: if you untie the genny ground from it's neutral at the genny, it doesn't matter how big the gauge ground cable to the house is. during a dwelling ground fault. The current that would run the alternate path of the ground wire in the dwelling has no connection to the gen head any more because you removed the tie. It's only path would be to cross to neutral at the service and run back on the neutral wire of your cord. That's not ideal.

Where Spy is correct: If you leave the genny neutral tied to ground, 120 volt loads will be flowing current over the connection cable grounding wire during normal genny operation. This is against nec code, and is not ideal.
Exactly. but nothing is ideal. Thats where you would get a max 2x potential on the gen chassis. Even at a dead H-G short it would be way below a dangerous potential, and probably not even detectable by a person in shoes -- and the gen breaker would pop. And in the case of a minor leak fault the gen potential would stay w/i millivolts of service/earth ground. ... And yes, of course these are dependent on the quality of your plug connection. But you plugged it in didnt you - scraping the visibly clean surfaces together. And 120/240 worked under load, right?- no heat at the plug? Then it is a good connection
larry
 
   / Should I change my PTO generator from Bonded Neutral to Floating Neutral? #32  
The only other thing i would do is ground the chassis of the generator to (dirt)ground with a ground rod. (if close enough to the meter location you could tie to that ground rod) this prevents the chassis from becoming energized if a short from hot to the chassis is made and then you walk up and touch the chassis thus completing the circuit to ground and getting shocked. (note after the above changes a short to neutral is bled off at the main panel were neutral and ground are common. hopefully causing a circuit breaker to trip on the genset)

:D
a bit of grounding humor, saw at a work site. osha had told him he needed earth ground. :laughing::eek:
 

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   / Should I change my PTO generator from Bonded Neutral to Floating Neutral? #33  
a bit of grounding humor, saw at a work site. osha had told him he needed earth ground. :laughing::eek:

They must have been joking around, right?

VP
 
   / Should I change my PTO generator from Bonded Neutral to Floating Neutral? #34  
I purchased a 25kw PTO generator in 1999 for Y2K. The generator as received had the neutral floating at the generator when I connected to my breaker panel the fuse in my stereo blew.
Bonding the ground to the generator solved the problem of stray currents.
I also installed a 4 guage cable to the generator frame with a heavy duty jumper cable clamp on the end so I can ground the system (generator & tractor) to the house ground or other suitably grounded item.
Being mounted on my tractor and possibly isolated from any ground I don稚 want to become a victim of electrocution because of an internal fault that energizes my tractor as I get on or off.
 
   / Should I change my PTO generator from Bonded Neutral to Floating Neutral? #35  
. ... And yes, of course these are dependent on the quality of your plug connection. But you plugged it in didnt you - scraping the visibly clean surfaces together. And 120/240 worked under load, right?- no heat at the plug? Then it is a good connection
larry

That is a very short sighted view. I wouldn't trust a plug and receptacle for such an important connection and neither does the code.

stonypass, In my opinion you are getting some pretty bad information here. There is probably more wisdom in the NEC than any other code or standard. To think that you are somehow going to make an installation safer by violating multiple sections of the NEC is absurd. I recommend you consult with a licensed electrician who is qualified to install optional standby systems.
 
   / Should I change my PTO generator from Bonded Neutral to Floating Neutral? #36  
I think you may be getting some bad information here. You should NOT make the changes you suggested. Your generator is configured as a separately derived system and it is not field reconfigurable. Therefore, the only safe way to connect your generator to your premises wiring system is through a transfer switch that switches the neutral. Three pole transfer switches are available. If you modify your generator, you are violating NEC articles 90.7, 110.2, and 110.3.

Portable generators that can be configured as a separately derived system or a non-separately derived system are also available. In these cases, a system bonding jumber is installed for a separately derived system or removed for a non-separately derived system. If the system bonding jumper is removed, the neutral from the premises wiring system must be solidly connected to the generator. A plug and receptacle at the generator is not a solid connection.

One of the problems with making the modifications you are suggesting is that the fault current path during an undgrounded (hot) to equipment grounding conductor (ground) fault between the premises wiring system and generator is not directly back to the source, as it should be. Instead, the fault current would need to flow through the premises wiring system main bonding jumper and back to the generator through the neutral. Also, if you were to ever use the generator as described with the plug in the first picture, the same is true. The fault current would be flowing through the plug. In both of these cases if you ever had a fault the circuit breaker may never trip.

Codes in the 100's are very genearlized, and boring for a specialized debate when it comes to home generators ( unless you manufacture generators and must comply). There are NEC sections specific for these. It would be more intersting if you would post some of those. You used the term "you are violating" but that would be for Mfg's, lawers and for paid installers. As far as I can tell he's doing it to his own equipment so that's only a scare term.
We've brought up a real drawback to your incistance, that the frame stay tied to the neutral, and that is as you know, that current will be flowing all the time on the connecting generator grounding wire with 120v loads, which we a know is a no-no. How can you post this reccomondation as an authority? I see you know code, but your answer goes against it.
 
   / Should I change my PTO generator from Bonded Neutral to Floating Neutral? #37  
the bonding of the genny fram to earth ground is the key imho.
un hook the netral to chassis at the genny
attach a bond cable, welding stuff, no connections (other than at each end)
from the chassis to the same place a you panel is bonded to earth. cold copper pipe
service in cities is popular. or the rod in the ground that the panel is bonded to.
the triple pole transfer switch should take of the nasty currents leaving the house to the pole.

volt meter from the genny chasis to a rod (wet) in the ground in the vicinty should measure
small if any. get fancy and make up a light bulb(s) low volt/mid watt for a monitor. iIf they start
glowing big, get the voltmeter out and find out why. leaky generator perhaps? probably wy they like to see
the N to chassis on the genny.
 
   / Should I change my PTO generator from Bonded Neutral to Floating Neutral? #38  
Codes in the 100's are very genearlized, and boring for a specialized debate when it comes to home generators ( unless you manufacture generators and must comply). There are NEC sections specific for these. It would be more intersting if you would post some of those. You used the term "you are violating" but that would be for Mfg's, lawers and for paid installers. As far as I can tell he's doing it to his own equipment so that's only a scare term.
We've brought up a real drawback to your incistance, that the frame stay tied to the neutral, and that is as you know, that current will be flowing all the time on the connecting generator grounding wire with 120v loads, which we a know is a no-no. How can you post this reccomondation as an authority? I see you know code, but your answer goes against it.

Are you serious? Article 90 and 100 are the most important sections in the code, as if you don't understand them you will never understand the rest of the code.

First of all, electricity doesn't care if you're a manufacturer, attorney, or electrician. It doesn't matter if you're installing the equipment by yourself on your own property without a permit / inspection process or if you hire someone to do the installation who follows a permitting / inspection process. Electricity doesn't care. If you want a safe installation in either situation, follow the NEC. That is it's purpose...practical safeguarding of persons and property from hazards arising from the use of electricity (90.1 (A)). Generally, if sections of the NEC are violated, hazards are generated. I don't really have the time or space here to go through all of the possible hazards associated with this particular scenario. I'm sure I don't even know them all. But I do know that behind almost every code section, there are many stories of shock, electrocution, and fire. Many stories I know very well.

If you read all of my posts, I never said to leave neutral and equipment ground bonded. I said that given the OP's stated intention, there is no safe way to complete the installation. Again, here's why.

If you leave the neutral and equipment ground bonded, then you will violate 250.6 (A):

"Arrangement to Prevent Objectionable Current. The grounding of electrical systems, circuit conductors, surge arresters, surge-protective devices, and conductive normally non膨urrent-carrying metal parts of equipment shall be installed and arranged in a manner that will prevent objectionable current. "

Many have pointed this out. I never disagreed, but that is not the full story. That is not the only section of the code. The OP also wants to use a plug and receptacle, which violates section 702.1:

"The provisions of this article apply to the installation and operation of optional standby systems.

The systems covered by this article consist of those that are permanently installed in their entirety, including prime movers, and those that are arranged for a connection to a premises wiring system from a portable alternate power supply."


A plug and receptacle is not considered permanent.

So now, what happens if you separate the neutral and equipment ground at the generator. You still violate section 702.1, because he wants to use a plug and receptacle. But you also violate 90.7, 110.2, and 110.3.

"90.7 Examination of Equipment for Safety.

For specific items of equipment and materials referred to in this Code, examinations for safety made under standard conditions provide a basis for approval where the record is made generally available through promulgation by organizations properly equipped and qualified for experimental testing, inspections of the run of goods at factories, and service-value determination through field inspections. This avoids the necessity for repetition of examinations by different examiners, frequently with inadequate facilities for such work, and the confusion that would result from conflicting reports on the suitability of devices and materials examined for a given purpose."
"110.2 Approval.

The conductors and equipment required or permitted by this Code shall be acceptable only if approved."
"110.3 Examination, Identification, Installation, and Use of Equipment.
(B) Installation and Use. Listed or labeled equipment shall be installed and used in accordance with any instructions included in the listing or labeling."

This is very important because the generator in question has been designed, manufactured, and tested against certain safety standards. The generator can't just be rewired and assumed safe. It's not. It was not intended to operate that way and there may be associated hazards. One obvious hazard is electrocution, as with no system bonding jumper in place, the equipment ground (generator chassis) can become energized. The possible ways this can happen is limited only by one's imagination. Another hazard is that the fault current path is changed. The new connections/configuration should be tested to see if it will carry the fault current that the generator can supply. That and many other tests were conducted before the generator was available as a commercial product.

The code doesn't want to rely on a plug and receptacle because they are more likely to fail than a solid connection. In this case, the plug and receptacle are mounted on a generator that will be vibrating, thermal cycling, and exposed to the elements. What can start out as a good connection can deteriorate fast. High resistance in the ungrounded (hot) or neutral connection can cause improper voltage at the load and prevent the circuit breaker from opening. High resistance in the equipment grounding connection can cause the equipment ground (generator chassis) to become energized during a ground fault.

The correct way to do the installation is to use a three pole transfer switch, if the generator will allow for a solid connection. If it doesn't allow for a solid connection, then there really is no safe way to connect this generator to the premises wiring system. The OP asked what is "for best safety". That's why I'm answering. There are many possible ways to connect the OP's generator to his premises wiring system, but for best safety, follow the NEC.
 
   / Should I change my PTO generator from Bonded Neutral to Floating Neutral? #39  
OP. Wanna sell that unsafe gen cheap?
 
   / Should I change my PTO generator from Bonded Neutral to Floating Neutral?
  • Thread Starter
#40  
The correct way to do the installation is to use a three pole transfer switch, if the generator will allow for a solid connection. If it doesn't allow for a solid connection, then there really is no safe way to connect this generator to the premises wiring system.

I appreciate your thoughts, but I'm wondering how many portable generators used for temporary emergency power are installed with a solid connection?



OP. Wanna sell that unsafe gen cheap?

Thanks for the offer, but I'm still planning on using it.
 
 

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