Charging for handyman work

[pacerron]

40 hours for an 8X8 deck...well, have to select and load and transport and unload materials, measure for posts, dig down 48 inches for footings, mix concrete and pour for footings, concrete has to set up so cannot do any more there so spend the rest of the day laying out materials and drilling the beams. Second day install beams and joists and hopefully get stairs framed and install steps. Third day install deck boards and get a start on railings. And should I mention her lot slopes badly meaning I will have a headache doing the work, especially the stairs, and there is currently a cobbled-together stairs and railing setup I have to take apart and dispose of?



I will tell you something...when I do construction I do a 95% job getting things straight and level...I don't use an air nailer, I use a hammer for nailing and I don't nail down deck boards, I screw them down. When I install the deck boards I use pipe clamps to get them as tight as possible. LD1, how could you possibly build a deck in one day if you had to wait for the concrete footings to dry? And you make no mention of the lattice and stairs I would have to install .

You built a 12X16 in ONE DAY? BY YOURSELF?? I don't buy that at all...even if you didn't have to use footings.

Bill,
I know you are capable of doing good work as evidenced by the pictures you have displayed of your home projects.
My wife always tells me that I am super capable of doing anything mechanical, constructive, or otherwise but then says we would have gone broke if I had done it as a business because I am too picky at getting everything perfect. Sounds like you fit that category too.
Going over your explanation above of what is required in this little project, do you really think the contractor is charging too much if he only makes $400 for all that time and work considering his fixed costs to really be in business? Before you retired, would you have worked 40 hours for $400 at your skill level?
The small size of the deck makes the other component factors porportionally more expensive.
You may be doing the contractor a favor as he probably didn't want such a small job anyway.
Be sure to save some of your labor money for the chiropractor.:2cents:
Ron

 

[Dutch445]

Call me crazy, but it sounds like this is a good friend, and you aren't really in it to make
money. Yes you will incur expenses with the travel.
If it were me, I'd build the deck, tell her that you certainly won't be close
to the contractors estimate, and once it's done ask her what she feels is fair.
Now, if you only end up with a couple hundred bucks, would you really care as long
as it covered your expenses to travel? Once it's done, she may decide she wants to
pay you the contractors price after watching the work you do! (which you wouldn't take
from the sound of it)
Either way, it sounds like
you want to help her out, and i would bet she would repay you fairly, then you don't
have to worry about time overages, or hourly rates etc.

 

[1GB]

From the start it sounded like you were looking to do someone a favor because you're such a nice guy. Under-cutting her first offer by such a tiny amount seems more like you're trying to make a job out of it.

40 hours for an 8'x8' deck seems very inflated unless you're including time for the cement to dry.

 

[JDgreen227]

From the start it sounded like you were looking to do someone a favor because you're such a nice guy. Under-cutting her first offer by such a tiny amount seems more like you're trying to make a job out of it.

40 hours for an 8'x8' deck seems very inflated unless you're including time for the cement to dry.

Amazes me just how many people here seem to think I am trying to make a job out of it. 1GB, how many decks have you built? How much construction have you actually done? How long would it take you to go to a lumberyard and hand select, load, and transport all the materials needed? How long would it take you to dig six 4 foot deep postholes in rocky, hard packed Michigan clay soil? The last several I did for my garden fence took THREE HOURS EACH because I don't have a PHD for my tractor, and the soil was so hard I had to replace the handles of one wood-handled PHD with metal pipe and use a sledge on those to get the jaws to bite into the soil.

And BTW, your ignorance about construction is obvious when you say "cement". Cement is the bagged powder one uses to mix CONCRETE.

 

[1GB]

Amazes me just how many people here seem to think I am trying to make a job out of it. 1GB, how many decks have you built? How much construction have you actually done? How long would it take you to go to a lumberyard and hand select, load, and transport all the materials needed? How long would it take you to dig six 4 foot deep postholes in rocky, hard packed Michigan clay soil? The last several I did for my garden fence took THREE HOURS EACH because I don't have a PHD for my tractor, and the soil was so hard I had to replace the handles of one wood-handled PHD with metal pipe and use a sledge on those to get the jaws to bite into the soil.

And BTW, your ignorance about construction is obvious when you say "cement". Cement is the bagged powder one uses to mix CONCRETE.

I've done no more than a half dozen, but I've also built many platforms and sank hundreds of wood posts and know it doesn't take 40 hours to dig six holes and build an 8'x8' platform. I've also helped many friends with their projects and never once charged for time spent picking up supplies, nor drawing out plans, offering consultation, etc. Maybe when I'm an old goat I'll see things differently.

 

[1GB]

And BTW, your ignorance about construction is obvious when you say "cement". Cement is the bagged powder one uses to mix CONCRETE.

I forgot to reply specifically to this little quip, but you need not wait for the aggregate to dry, thus it's 100% correct that you must wait for the cement to dry, which serves as the binder of the aggregate when making concrete. :duh:

 

[LD1]

I have no dog in the fight and I am NOT picking sides, but just thought I would point out that both are incorrect. Because cement or concrete (whatever you prefer) doesnt dry. It is a chemical reaction and it "cures"

 

[rtimgray]

I find the best way to sour a friendship is to add money to the mix. I've done several handyman favors for friends, but I draw the line at when money exchanges hands. I'll either do it for free or not at all.

Some folks have no qualms with such, but I do not count myself among them.

For what it's worth, I'm loving the concrete vs. cement sub-plot; people who pour "cement" drive me bananas.

Good luck with whatever you chose and however long it takes you to build it. I started our house 11 years ago; we've move in 5 years ago; I'll let you guys know when it's finished.

 

[JDgreen227]

Just offhand....the lady in question isn't what I would call a good friend...just a former work associate. As for those who think I should do the project for my mileage expenses and ask nothing for my time:

How many of you are skilled tradesman (as I consider myself) with 40 years of experience, or how many of you are what are considered computer experts? I doubt if many of you would want to devote more than a few hours to helping a friend without thought of reimbursement for the time you put into doing something for them. A few hours, I am happy to do that for someone. I do not expect ANYONE, even if they are a close friend, to devote several days solving my computer problems for free, or if they are a financial planner, expect them to give me two or three days advice without charge. One of my wife's brothers is a journeyman electrician...when I need his expertise while hooking up a main panel, he gets paid for his work, family or not.

The friend I mention recently did part time work as a secretary during her retirement, and because the work was for a church office and therefore a worthy cause, did she offer to help them for free? NO. She expected to be paid for it.

 

[jejeosborne]

Just offhand....the lady in question isn't what I would call a good friend...just a former work associate. As for those who think I should do the project for my mileage expenses and ask nothing for my time:

How many of you are skilled tradesman (as I consider myself) with 40 years of experience, or how many of you are what are considered computer experts? I doubt if many of you would want to devote more than a few hours to helping a friend without thought of reimbursement for the time you put into doing something for them. A few hours, I am happy to do that for someone. I do not expect ANYONE, even if they are a close friend, to devote several days solving my computer problems for free, or if they are a financial planner, expect them to give me two or three days advice without charge. One of my wife's brothers is a journeyman electrician...when I need his expertise while hooking up a main panel, he gets paid for his work, family or not.

The friend I mention recently did part time work as a secretary during her retirement, and because the work was for a church office and therefore a worthy cause, did she offer to help them for free? NO. She expected to be paid for it.

I am with you. I have a home improvement llc business on the side and make a majority of my money with it from friends, coworkers, single mothers, and relatives. Many times I will trade time instead. They are happy to have a trustworthy known person performing the work for a little less money to boot. I charge $20/hr from the time I leave my house including shopping. $40/hr if using my tractor. Not trying to get rich but it adds a level to my lifestyle and average about 16-20 hours per week because I work a rotating shift at my "real" job.

 

[joshuabardwell]

$.35 is a fair charge for travel expenses .

For what it's worth, the federal mileage rate is currently around $0.55. My truck, I spend about $0.25 / mile in gas alone.

 

[joshuabardwell]

I am certain the reason she asked me is because she would prefer to have someone she knows is honest and reliable and does good quality work

If that's the case, then why are you cutting her a cash discount? Tell her you'll do the job for $2k. The "discount" in this case is the confidence that she is getting honest, reliable, quality work. See what I mean? I constantly have to tell myself this, when I price my pork against grocery-store meat: my stuff is MORE valuable and I am justified in charging MORE for it.

 

[rtimgray]

Just offhand....the lady in question isn't what I would call a good friend...just a former work associate. As for those who think I should do the project for my mileage expenses and ask nothing for my time:

How many of you are skilled tradesman (as I consider myself) with 40 years of experience, or how many of you are what are considered computer experts? I doubt if many of you would want to devote more than a few hours to helping a friend without thought of reimbursement for the time you put into doing something for them. A few hours, I am happy to do that for someone. I do not expect ANYONE, even if they are a close friend, to devote several days solving my computer problems for free, or if they are a financial planner, expect them to give me two or three days advice without charge. One of my wife's brothers is a journeyman electrician...when I need his expertise while hooking up a main panel, he gets paid for his work, family or not.

The friend I mention recently did part time work as a secretary during her retirement, and because the work was for a church office and therefore a worthy cause, did she offer to help them for free? NO. She expected to be paid for it.

I do it for free or not at all. I also don't have any problems telling people "No."

When our church expanded, I did all of the plans and prints, talked with the state inspectors office, worked with the contractor and building committee, etc. When I draw plans for other clients (not friends), I charge. When it's for church or friends, it's free or I don't do it.

I built the entire set of cabinets for the church expansion, out of 3/4" red oak plywood for the backs and bases, with solid red oak for the faces and raised panel doors. All of the slides, hinges, hardware, etc. And I did it for free (it was about $3,000 in materials and over 200 hours in time) but I accepted no compensation for it. It also carries a lifetime (well, my lifetime, anyway) warranty. I've attached a picture that shows part of the installation (not shown is the 14' long island). No, I didn't spring for granite countertops, just laminate. But I did do all of the installation as well.

Another church, local to me, contacted me last year about doing a set of plans for their expansion, very similar to ours. I took on much of the same responsibility and workload, but made it clear from the beginning that I would accept no compensation. After the design was done and construction started, they offered to pay me $200 and I again declined. My only condition was to be invited to the dedication ceremony (which is potluck) and get to show up empty-handed. Coincidentally, that happens at 9:30 this coming Sunday morning.

About a week or two after I started the above project, yet another church approached me about the same services. I told them that I would not be able to help them because I was already busy, and they offered to pay as well, However, I felt I didn't have enough free time to devote to my work, my home, these projects, and my family. So I just told them "No - I can't do it now." I believe they ended up with another capable individual doing the work, and I have no idea if he is being paid or not.

I have done some woodworking for friends - it's always free, material included. I've built cabinets for other folks, but they're not friends, and I do accept money for that.

I know I've wandered all over the place on this, just to say the following: It's fine with me if you get paid for your work, and charge whatever you are comfortable with. I'm all for people being compensated to whatever level they feel is necessary. These are merely my views and my experiences in the matter of working with friends.

Remember, sometimes the problem with asking for opinions on an internet message board is that you will probably get them.

 

[Deere Dude]

I don't know if the time is fair or not, but there are times when you may take a lot of time to get an estimate for the wood at the lumber yard, then price the stain, the screws etc. You take the time drive over and look and to map out how you want to do it and you may have 10 hours cypherin' in the job before you even start. Then you give her a good price and she may say, I can get it done cheaper someplace else.

Then you go back and look at the finished job done by someone else and it was put up shoddily, but she got it done cheaper. There is quite a bit of time taken even before the job starts and you still might not get the job. I would stick to the quote you think as fair and let her do what she wants to do. If you quote on 40 hours and she lets you do the work and find you are done way ahead of schedule, charge less. People do that once in awhile, but not often.

 

[PILOON]

I have built a fair number of decks over the last few years.
12 x 20 (high enough to walk under) c/w stairs, railings= 2 days with helper.
8 x 8 would be 1 day alone.
On y rental 12 x 16, railings and no stairs took me about 12 hrs ALONE!
Main beam was spliced up 2 x 10's (6 x 10) on 3 posts with 45 deg braces house side beam stagger lagged every foot and decking all 5/4 treated wood.
2 x 8 joists.
Railing 2 x 2 'spindles' with 2 x 6 'top rail'
After many decks and other projects I found as a general rule of thumb that materials generally equaled labor, but then I use nail guns and possess just about every power tool I guy would want.
I generally phone in my orders and have materials delivered as time is valuable. My suppliers generally always provide me good quality so I rely on them.
On a cost and materials basis I'd charge $50 for me and helper and found that materials most often did equal labor.
One trick I learned from an old timer (or adopted and modified) is to lay strips of roofing membrane (about 2 " wide) between the deck joists and the decking as I noticed that this way the joists would not rot out and that you could replace decking a few times without any joist rot.
Worst deck I did was 14 x 40 deck 20 ft above ground, half over a cliff. That was a challenge and a whole other story.

 

[Rock knocker]

Call me crazy...........
If it were me, I'd build the deck, tell her that you certainly won't be close
to the contractors estimate, and once it's done ask her what she feels is fair............. and i would bet she would repay you fairly

You are completely crazy. Spend a lot of time and money, and then put it on the customer to pay you what they think is fair? That is, like you said, crazy.

Have you ever heard "no good deed goes unpunished"?

 

[JDgreen227]

I have built a fair number of decks over the last few years.
12 x 20 (high enough to walk under) c/w stairs, railings= 2 days with helper.
8 x 8 would be 1 day alone.
On y rental 12 x 16, railings and no stairs took me about 12 hrs ALONE!
Main beam was spliced up 2 x 10's (6 x 10) on 3 posts with 45 deg braces house side beam stagger lagged every foot and decking all 5/4 treated wood.
2 x 8 joists.
Railing 2 x 2 'spindles' with 2 x 6 'top rail'
After many decks and other projects I found as a general rule of thumb that materials generally equaled labor, but then I use nail guns and possess just about every power tool I guy would want.
I generally phone in my orders and have materials delivered as time is valuable. My suppliers generally always provide me good quality so I rely on them.
On a cost and materials basis I'd charge $50 for me and helper and found that materials most often did equal labor.
One trick I learned from an old timer (or adopted and modified) is to lay strips of roofing membrane (about 2 " wide) between the deck joists and the decking as I noticed that this way the joists would not rot out and that you could replace decking a few times without any joist rot.
Worst deck I did was 14 x 40 deck 20 ft above ground, half over a cliff. That was a challenge and a whole other story.

Have never heard of the roofing membrane trick...you must be referring to that black self-stick/self seal stuff I use on roof valleys and edges.

You say an 8X8 deck, 1 day with a helper? That means at least 2 days on your own, maybe longer because you don't have someone holding up the other end and helping you level and line up the lumber. And you have materials delivered? Saves at least 4 hours work right there. And some people here are saying it takes only a day to build a small deck. Thanks for your input. You just verified from a reliable source it's at least 2 1/2 work days for one guy. And your price of $25 per man hour is very reasonable for someone skilled in the trade.

 

[LD1]

You say an 8X8 deck, 1 day with a helper?

8 x 8 would be 1 day alone.

 

[Dutch445]

You are completely crazy. Spend a lot of time and money, and then put it on the customer to pay you what they think is fair? That is, like you said, crazy.

Have you ever heard "no good deed goes unpunished"?

weird concept huh?
but i would have her pay for the materials first, then let her decide if i was worth the same as the other guy, or more or less. i'm sure it would work out ok.

but then again, i just spend labor day helping a friend of mine on his 16/36 deck, (after he spent the weekend on it) and after 8 hrs of re-doing most of what
he had done (he had really no building experience) we had things at least level and square, so he had a good start on hanging the rest of the joists and installing
the decking.
oh, and he didn't ask and i didn't ask "how much",
just a friend helping a friend (and that was NOT how i planned on spending the Holiday)

 

[JDgreen227]

You are completely crazy. Spend a lot of time and money, and then put it on the customer to pay you what they think is fair? That is, like you said, crazy.

Have you ever heard "no good deed goes unpunished"?

My dad loved to tell me "People will take advantage of others, that's human nature"...well, let me clarify something here:

Said lady worked for the same place I did, and our employed bases the pensions depending on your gross wages while you were emplyed, and she earned about half as much again as I did, meaning her pension is half again as much as mine. She has a mobile home, one car, no outbuildings, park she lives in handles lawn care and snow removal. As for me, I have a house 3X the size of her mobile home, four outbuildings to repair and maintain, four cars and trucks plus my tractor to maintain and repair, a 5 1/2 acre yard to care for, 500'-600' feet of driveway to keep clear in the winter....and the constant fifty dozen things to be done on any property. I am NOT going to go to all the time and work required to help her and THEN hope she repays me for what SHE thinks is a fair amount.