Outrage after NY paper publishes names of gun permit holders

[IslandTractor]

How are you going to determine who's unbalanced? Mental health records are not available to the public.

Are you not aware of who the nutty neighbors are? I don't want to focus on Newtown but there were quite a few people who knew that kid was a problem camper. In his case he got the guns from his mother but if he were living alone or had his own permits and had come to the attention of the community members as a problem camper why should they not be able to check on something like gun ownership. If he was a reformed (?) sex criminal he could be identified even if he was living within the law. Many of the anti gun control people have argued that we need better mental health care and I agree but part of that would be to be able to make correlations between unusual behavior and gun ownership IMO. I am well aware that gun owners have rights to privacy too but I don't see those rights as trumping the rights of the community to know when there is an individual who displays worrisome behavior and is also a gun owner. Guns kill too many people in this country to be simply a private matter anymore.

They aren't treated differently. Those are public records and are available to all. However, you rarely see names of people with pilot's licenses or liquor licenses or driver's licenses published in the paper unless they did something wrong, are up for review, or are involved in an altercation.

Agree but I suspect the trend with all public information is that it will be available on line soon if it is not already. I can easily look up the property tax records of my neighbors and many other bits of information that has typically not been easily accessible even if technically in the public domain. That is clearly changing with freedom of information laws and Google as well as the fact that city/county governments find it is cheaper for them to just make the data readily available by computer/internet rather than having to pay for extra administrative staff to dig the information out for public requests. I don't see this as a gun issue at all but rather the nature of our changing info world.

You don't run a background check on the parents of every classmate that your child goes to attend a birthday party at, do you? No. You get to know the parents of your child's peers through interaction at school functions, sporting events, friends of friends, church, talks over the fence, by the mailbox, etc...These are things that you are supposed to ask a child's playmate's parents before you send them over to play unsupervised if its something you are concerned about. Do you ask them if they have unsecured steak knives, fireworks, gasoline and matches, too? No. You observe the parents and families of your children's friends and make judgements as you go.

Yes, one would generally know from a variety of sources what the homes of your kid's friends were like. However, I don't read often about kids killing each other with steak knives or matches so I am not concerned about those. Accidental deaths in children due to improperly stored firearms however are well known. I don't see why a gun owner's privacy is worth any more than the safety of my child. I'd only want to inquire if the guns were locked away while kids were playing. The real risk of kids getting access to loaded guns is a much bigger problem than the hypothetical problem stemming from a loss of privacy for gun permit holders.

Publishing the names and addresses of all the people that have a legal permit to carry a firearm will do absolutely nothing to prevent anything.

Take the case of the mass school shooting two weeks ago....

The firearms were legally owned by the mother, not the son.
He didn't use the gun show loophole to obtain them.
No background check would have caught him because he got the guns from his mother.
A waiting period to purchase would not have prevented it.
The assault weapons ban wouldn't have prevented it as there are literally hundreds of thousands of these weapons already on the market.
A ban on large capacity magazines would not have prevented it. He would have just carried more 10 round clips for any large caliber semi-automatic hunting rifle.
The woman had the proper permits. That made no difference.
The woman was trained to use the firearms, yet the son got them from her and killed her. Training made no difference.

With over 300 million guns legally possessed by citizens in the U.S. do you really think you can ever remove them from circulation? The guns are not the problem. Homicide is the problem. You are more likely to be blown up by a mass murderer than shot by a mass murderer.

Sick individuals have always been and will always be. They will find ways to commit homicide. Publishing the names of people that are concerned enough with their own personal safety to go through the proper and legal process to obtain a permit to carry a firearm for personal protection is just sensationalist journalism by a writer or newspaper trying to stir readership for personal financial gain.

I'm not sure it was irresponsible journalism but rather an example of how prevalent guns are these days. In fact there seem to be many fewer registered permit holders than the NRA would have us believe. Zooming in on that map shows about one or two permits per neighborhood of a few dozen homes. That doesn't fit with the national averages which I presume are much higher.

The argument that the Newtown gun was perfectly legal is hardly one that inspires confidence that these sorts of weapons should be tolerated under any circumstances. I believe there are epidemiological studies that already show a gun in the home is actually a risk for suffering gun violence rather than protection. I am sure there are many anecdotes regarding instances where a gun made a positive difference but not so sure at all about the overall impact. Add suicide and accidents along with domestic dispute homicide (eg Newtown) and having any gun much less a rapid fire weapon around isn't such a slam dunk good idea. That is obviously a big debate issue and not one that really is relevant to this particular discussion about a newspaper posting the addresses of gun permit holders.

Finally, where on earth do you come up with the statement that you are more likely to be blown up by a mass murderer than killed by one with a gun? Other than Oklahoma I do not recall a major bombing mass killing of citizens by other citizens in this country in the past twenty years or more. In that time there have been multiple mass killings by gun.

 

[Western]

I disagree. Don't you think it would be useful to know if an unbalanced individual in your neighborhood had a permit for a semi automatic rifle? Who decides who is imbalance and if that info can be published fairly?

I'd want to know if there was a gun in a house that one of my kids was likely to be playing in. I'd take the opportunity to ask the parents in that house how they secured the weapon. If it didn't meet my standards for safety I'd simply not let my kid go there. Why shouldn't I have that information? Agree, but think that falls on the responsibility of the parent to keep tag of when and where their child is

I think what the paper did was in a malice way with a motive outside of journalism to feed off an awe full tragedy

How many kids die from, drunk drivers, secondhand smoke, suicide after being bullied, neglect and abuse and on and on? Wheres the "outcry" from these social disgraces?

 

[IslandTractor]

I think what the paper did was in a malice way with a motive outside of journalism to feed off an awe full tragedy

How many kids die from, drunk drivers, secondhand smoke, suicide after being bullied, neglect and abuse and on and on? Wheres the "outcry" from these social disgraces?

Actually that list of things you gave are topics that are routinely discussed in newspapers at least where I live. And, there is plenty of outcry and action based on the publicity too. Drunk driving is a big problem and certainly MADD etc keep it in the public eye. Second hand smoke and effect on children is why you cannot smoke in public places anymore. Suicide after bullying is a very sore point in the Boston area as one of the horrendous examples occurred in a western suburb a year or two ago. As a result of that publicity we now have tighter stricter laws on reporting and school interventions. Neglect and abuse are long standing issues but again it was newspapers reporting the abuses of Catholic priests that finally brought that nightmare to public attention.

Newspapers don't always get it right but I think they serve a purpose by making us debate some of these controversial topics. Much better than sweeping them under the rug.

 

[CurlyDave]

My kids are grown and gone, but I always wondered if the parents of their friends owned guns. If they didn't I consider them somewhat unbalanced.

Once the kids got to high school age I would sometimes ask their parents if I could take them to the pistol range. It always had to be written permission. I rarely got the opportunity to shoot myself, I was always too busy supervising & teaching the kids.

They all loved it, they all learned the fundamentals of firearms safety, and it certainly didn't hurt their status with their peers.

 

[two_bit_score]

The issue came up in Texas a few years ago and the State, wisely, declared CHL holder info non public information.

.

 

[Smokepole62]

The logical response to this would be to look up the pertinant information on the reporters as well as the editers of said publication. Send a copy of their address and whether each
has a handgun permit or not to them personally and to the editorial page. Go one step further and post it on local modern electronic media as well as posting bills about town where
permitted. After all, it is public knowledge.

We seem to have developed a modern day media who doesn't believe that the first amendment applies to everyone. Hence the predicament David Gregory seems to be in at the moment.

 

[hosspuller]

Here's a site with personal information of the Journel's editor and some of their staff involved in the publication of addresses.

What Goes Around Comes Around – ***** – A.K.A. RULE FOUR

Janet Hasson has a very nice house that can be toured on zillow.

 

[StanR]

The issue came up in Texas a few years ago and the State, wisely, declared CHL holder info non public information.

.

Yep... Glad this is private info in TX.

 

[Western]

Actually that list of things you gave are topics that are routinely discussed in newspapers at least where I live. And, there is plenty of outcry and action based on the publicity too. Drunk driving is a big problem and certainly MADD etc keep it in the public eye. Second hand smoke and effect on children is why you cannot smoke in public places anymore. Suicide after bullying is a very sore point in the Boston area as one of the horrendous examples occurred in a western suburb a year or two ago. As a result of that publicity we now have tighter stricter laws on reporting and school interventions. Neglect and abuse are long standing issues but again it was newspapers reporting the abuses of Catholic priests that finally brought that nightmare to public attention.

Newspapers don't always get it right but I think they serve a purpose by making us debate some of these controversial topics. Much better than sweeping them under the rug.

Agreed, but the outcry isn't to the point of 24 hours coverage for a week, or rampant cry's for immediate action. I feel firearms is an "easy" cause, since this tragic thing evokes much emotion and hostility, though 1,000's of children die each year from "other" preventable cause. I do concede that firearms are dangerous in the hands of a mentally deranged individual, sort of like a drunk driving a vehicle.

I do think gun owners (myself include) for the most part, are open to discussion, but not knee jerk reactions to reduce our rights further.

I have lost the "illusion" that media in general, has my best interest at heart, rather seems to be their "agenda" what ever that may be.

 

[RoyJackson]

I can see a major "Right to Privacy" lawsuit against that newspaper...