Got a wee bit of a property line issue

[edlegault]

If I absolutely knew where the property line was I would just remove the fence, or whatever was on my property. Burn it, sell it for scrap, etc.

 

[teejk]

If I absolutely knew where the property line was I would just remove the fence, or whatever was on my property. Burn it, sell it for scrap, etc.

Do a little reading on Hatfields/McCoys before you do anything rash (in fact raise that with the neighbor). If they are trying to pull an "adverse possession" stunt, you'll know it. As noted several times above, state laws are all over the map. But since the whole concept comes from English common law, I think it is universal that "possession" be "adverse", meaning use of the property was without your knowledge. From there it comes down to "how long" (state by state) and what constitutes "possession" (again state by state). E.g. in Wisconsin "possession" means permanent structures (driveway/fencing doesn't work).

Since you are bringing in a surveyor anyway, make sure they flag the reference points for you to view. Here the practice for decades has been iron posts that can be hard to find in woods/brush. And I'll add that the penalties for moving one of those markers is pretty harsh (for good reason).

 

[CliffordK]

If I absolutely knew where the property line was I would just remove the fence, or whatever was on my property. Burn it, sell it for scrap, etc.

If you need your property to be fenced. Then taking the fence out may be counterproductive.

If someone came and ripped out one of my fences (in good condition) without permission, I would insist that they put a decent quality fence back (at least of similar build to other fences on the person's property that ripped out the fence), with new materials.

 

[ovrszd]

If you need your property to be fenced. Then taking the fence out may be counterproductive.

If someone came and ripped out one of my fences (in good condition) without permission, I would insist that they put a decent quality fence back (at least of similar build to other fences on the person's property that ripped out the fence), with new materials.

But what if your fence was on my property??? That's the issue here. That's the clarification that's needed by Mr Edlegault. In my case, I knew where the property line was and knew the fence was built on my property. I think Mr Edlegault will find the same thing with his issue.

 

[Dr_Zinj]

I cannot understand how someone can go to the expense and trouble of building a home without having a survey done to definitively establish property lines...

When it's out in back of the woods with nothing near it, including no commercially harvestable timber or other resources, it's not a major problem if it zigzags around and evens off. That changes when you put a structure up that changes the use category, and your use of the property. I my case, these folks permanently destroyed my ability to hunt on several acres of my own property due to the 300 foot rule in NH. It's to my benefit to ensure I maximize what I have left. Hence, nailing that line down now.

Adverse possession is just one more way of saying possession is 9/10ths of the law.

 

[joshuabardwell]

If someone came and ripped out one of my fences (in good condition) without permission, I would insist that they put a decent quality fence back (at least of similar build to other fences on the person's property that ripped out the fence), with new materials.

What about an analogy. Let's say you park your tractor in my barn. I call you and say, "I need you to get your tractor out of my barn, please." And you say, "Sorry. That's where I want to park it. That's where my daddy parked it, and his daddy before him." I realize that it'd be out of line for me to immediately go out to the barn and set fire to your tractor, but how long am I supposed to let you park your tractor in my barn before I just tow the dang thing out of there and leave it on your doorstep? And how many times should I allow you to return it to my barn before I make the dang thing disappear entirely?

We're focused on the destruction of property of the fence here, but let's also remember that the legal owner of the property is being deprived of his use of that property at the same time. How long is the owner supposed to bear that insult? If he or she bears it long enough, adverse possession may kick in, and then you'll have injury on top of insult.

 

[teejk]

I cannot understand how someone can go to the expense and trouble of building a home without having a survey done to definitively establish property lines...

Pretty stupid isn't it? Barring the removal of the structure, the price of the land it is encroaching on can be more expensive than HP Inkjet cartridges (the most expensive commodity on the face of the earth, just ahead of Gillette Trac 3 shaver cartridges). In this day with GPS etc., a proper survey doesn't cost that much.

 

[dodge man]

To the OP, and I hate to say this, I am a land surveyor and I agree with so many others, make the guy move his fence over to the boudary line. I have done to many jobs where there are hard feelings between land owners and it can spiral out of control. I would have your surveyor talk to the guy and let he know this is the "offical line" and his fence is over it. If he doesn't move, move it for him.

I will tell a short story. I did a survey about 20 years ago. The adjoiner called and said our survey was wrong. We checked our work and it was correct and it turned out the guy had lost his ground because he wasn't able to keep up with the payments. In other words, sour grapes. Fast forward about 3 years ago people bought the adjoining land and we surveyed the land again and there was a fence on the new line and it was in the wrong place. I also found the markers from my previous survey, and at first I thought they were in the wrong place and I had made a mistake 20 years ago. After checking several things, I determined the guy had moved my markers 20 years ago when he complained and after I had left the job site and had then built the fence. When I confronted him, he blamed it on the guy that had built the fence for him. I talked to the new land owners about adverse possesion, getting a lawyer, and that I was 99% sure his adjoiner had moved the pins 20 years ago but I couldn't prove it. This new land owner did what I consider a pretty gutsy thing, he talked to the adjoiner about moving the fence but he wouldn't do it. He then went out with a bull dozer, took the old fence out, and built a new one on the correct line. He related to me he told the guy he would see him in court if need be. I always admired him for doing this, but he also knew I would go to court for him and swear the corner markers had been moved.

I can't recomend this kind of drastic action, but like I said, I admired the guy for doing it, and it turned out to the correct course of action for him to reclaim the land.

 

[teejk]

Just looked at Wisconsin law...seems the fine for moving a marker is only $250 (needs to be inflation adjusted I think) but it also says up to a year in the county pen.

 

[ovrszd]

To the OP, and I hate to say this, I am a land surveyor and I agree with so many others, make the guy move his fence over to the boudary line. I have done to many jobs where there are hard feelings between land owners and it can spiral out of control. I would have your surveyor talk to the guy and let he know this is the "offical line" and his fence is over it. If he doesn't move, move it for him.

I will tell a short story. I did a survey about 20 years ago. The adjoiner called and said our survey was wrong. We checked our work and it was correct and it turned out the guy had lost his ground because he wasn't able to keep up with the payments. In other words, sour grapes. Fast forward about 3 years ago people bought the adjoining land and we surveyed the land again and there was a fence on the new line and it was in the wrong place. I also found the markers from my previous survey, and at first I thought they were in the wrong place and I had made a mistake 20 years ago. After checking several things, I determined the guy had moved my markers 20 years ago when he complained and after I had left the job site and had then built the fence. When I confronted him, he blamed it on the guy that had built the fence for him. I talked to the new land owners about adverse possesion, getting a lawyer, and that I was 99% sure his adjoiner had moved the pins 20 years ago but I couldn't prove it. This new land owner did what I consider a pretty gutsy thing, he talked to the adjoiner about moving the fence but he wouldn't do it. He then went out with a bull dozer, took the old fence out, and built a new one on the correct line. He related to me he told the guy he would see him in court if need be. I always admired him for doing this, but he also knew I would go to court for him and swear the corner markers had been moved.

I can't recomend this kind of drastic action, but like I said, I admired the guy for doing it, and it turned out to the correct course of action for him to reclaim the land.

That was my point with my neighbor. In my case, he gave in and moved it. It would not have bothered me to tear out his brand new 6 barbed wire fence. He knew that. He also knew that in the end he would have to bear the expense of building another fence in the proper place. I have no livestock and no need for the fence so it didn't matter to me. I was calm, rational and mature in my conversations with Kevin. But he also knew I was the craziest guy in the "bar fight" and wouldn't hesitate to take action. As my Grandpa would say "To deal with the bastards you gotta be a *******".

 

[Robert_in_NY]

As my Grandpa would say "To deal with the bastards you gotta be a *******".

I like your grandpa's saying, sadly it is true.

 

[CliffordK]

I'm not saying the problem is the destruction of property of the fence, although it does seem to be a bit of a waste.

Say I had a fence that kept my cows and your cows separate just fine.
Then you come along and say it isn't pretty enough.
If we can't agree on splitting the repair cost, then either the old fence stays, or the person pushing for the new fence against the will of the other person will pay for the construction of the fence.

It is quite possible that the OP, phiferpharm, will put livestock on his side of the fence, and the neighbor will not put livestock on their side of the fence. So the neighbor might survive for an extended period without a fence, but phiferpharm would be unable to do so.

 

[joshuabardwell]

I'm not saying the problem is the destruction of property of the fence, although it does seem to be a bit of a waste.

I agree, but isn't it also a waste that the property owner is being prevented from accessing/using his or her property?

Say I had a fence that kept my cows and your cows separate just fine.
Then you come along and say it isn't pretty enough.

If it's on your property, I can go spit. If it's on my property, without my permission, and I've asked you to remove it, and you've declined, then... what?

If we can't agree on splitting the repair cost, then either the old fence stays, or the person pushing for the new fence against the will of the other person will pay for the construction of the fence.

What if you come to me and say, "I want to put a fence on your property," and I say no? Then what happens? Then what happens if you do it anyway?

 

[CliffordK]

Of course, apparently the OP's wife told the neighbor that if the tree was in the way, then to build the fence around it. Nobody apparently really discussed what that really meant. Wire fences often get nailed to trees.

Certainly if I intended for a tree trunk to be in my yard, and wanted to mow around the tree, I'd build 90% of the fence down the line, then put in a short curved section around the tree.

 

[phiferpharm]

How wide is the easement?

Sorry I didn't answer sooner Kyle - made a trip to Miami. Anyway, it's 15'

I appreciate and won't discount any actions at this point, but meeting with the surveyor is first. As far as the comment CliffordK made, I am putting in a new fenced pasture where I cleared the land and as with all the other pastures I have made (5), like to leave a big enough "Belt" around them to get my Tractor/mowers around them. In the case of this fence, I knew I wanted to be sure there was a sizeable buffer so my critters weren't gonna be sticking their heads over into the adjoining property. The neighbor only has dogs and I can resolve the issue I'm having with them "visiting" with the item listed below.

There was a "border" fence surrounding my entire 20 acres that was small posts, open wire, with a barb wire top. I say was because the last 25' of that has been taken down and the border left open where it attaches to the neighbors new fence. THAT will be fixed this weekend if the rain stops.

I will admit, the further I get into some of this, the more I'm leaning towards getting it moved. With that said, I've spent enough time in my jobs prior to retiring to know the value of having all the facts validated and undesputable before taking action. Having clearly marked property lines, easements, etc, not just on the paper, but on the ground prior to speaking with the neighbor will be better.

 

[ovrszd]

I will admit, the further I get into some of this, the more I'm leaning towards getting it moved. With that said, I've spent enough time in my jobs prior to retiring to know the value of having all the facts validated and undesputable before taking action. Having clearly marked property lines, easements, etc, not just on the paper, but on the ground prior to speaking with the neighbor will be better.

Very well stated, calm and mature. Just be mentally prepared to engage if needed.

I think your neighbor will cooperate when he sees you are acting appropriately. Anxious to hear of the outcome.

 

[quicksandfarmer]

If we can't agree on splitting the repair cost, then either the old fence stays, or the person pushing for the new fence against the will of the other person will pay for the construction of the fence.

Not in Virginia, if it's agricultural land:

No owner of land used for industrial or commercial purposes, or subdivided into lots or parcels, adjoining lands used for agricultural purposes, when given notice by the owner of such adjoining lands under 55-318 shall have the option of choosing to let his land lie open, but shall build one half of such fence or be liable therefore.

Virginia Law for Farmers and Landowners: What's New from the 2005 Legislative Session

 

[riptides]

Not in Virginia, if it's agricultural land:

No owner of land used for industrial or commercial purposes, or subdivided into lots or parcels, adjoining lands used for agricultural purposes, when given notice by the owner of such adjoining lands under 55-318 shall have the option of choosing to let his land lie open, but shall build one half of such fence or be liable therefore.

Virginia Law for Farmers and Landowners: What's New from the 2005 Legislative Session

Ahh, A new law, embodied in HB1648, modifies Virginia's fence law governing the construction of division fences.

Right out of the link. There is no liability on adjoining property owners, unless both are agreeable and engaged in livestock production/ag-land.

 

[plowindeeper]

Mississippi has had the same law for years just try to enforce it.

 

[riptides]

Mississippi has had the same law for years just try to enforce it.

This law in VA, came up many years ago during a dispute between two land owners. One, a long time farmer, the other a newly arrived lawyer.

The farmer, god rest his soul, ended up dead.

The fence law came up during the trial, and was a major factor in the dastardly deed.

Most in VA, did not know of the existance of the "law" which dated back to the late 1700's and had never been amended. HB1648 took care of that.