Operator not in seat

[yankeerider]

Interesting that some people want to bad-mouth Deere inthis forum and thread. I see complaints about not being able to rise up and scratch one's butt whileusing forks, because the engine is killed by the seat safety switch. My Yanmar-engined Deere's seat safety switch only shuts off the PTO, it doesn't kill the engine. That lets me rise up for better view ahead without the tractor shutting off. I have inadvertently stopped mowing because of it, but that is immediately apparent and only requires sitting back down and re-engaging the PTO. Also, by simply reading the owner's manual, one can learn to operate a stationary PTO attachment- like my 3 pt. woodchipper- simply by flipping the seat forward and pulling up on the seat safety switch to activate the "out of seat" PTO engaged capability- no jumpering required.

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[buickanddeere]

Lets not pretend that JD produces anything much more than the nameplate for any of their li'tul twacktors.
Last time I checked everything under about 85 HP was of Asian origin.
The nameplates ? I don't know where those are stamped out.

As the importer one would think a company has SOME product responsibility, even for afterthought safety interlocks.
Maybe, maybe not - just stick a few interlock micro-switches in, slap danger stickers (in whatever required language) on it - done.

Ever hear tell of a place called Horicon Wisconsin or Augusta Georgia?

 

[Wagtail]

Randy - you're using an awful big brush to paint your picture. Please note that I qualified my opinion with the words "interlocks of this nature". NGFS and compact tractor operation are NOT of the same nature.

//greg//

Greg mate, I don't think I'm using that big a brush (4" instead of 6" perhaps). Large caliber gun mountings & CUTs are both mindless mechanical devices that can do you damage.

Here's my thinking... The majority of work done with our tractors is individual. We do it basically alone with no one watching over us so when a stuff-up does happen, help can be a long time coming. At the very least these safety interlocks are an annoying reminder that you could be doing something dumb, to stop it and reassess the situation. How many times have people said that when something bad happens on their tractor it happens quickly.

A lot of todays tractors have cruise control. What would happen without the operator-in-seat interlock if you were blissfully in cruise control, tilling your paddock & get bounced out of your seat onto the ground? The tractor would keep on going & (worst-case) the tiller grinds you up.

I'm all for temporarily defeating the seat interlock (like putting a sack of cement in the seat) for a specific occasion. The reason for this 'qualifier' is that the situation has been thought out and will apply to that single situation at that time. When the job is done you must return the tractor to its normal operation (by removing the sack of cement).

Of course there are intelligence-insulting safety warnings all over the place. Safety Labels are cheap and cover the manufacturors collective arse. But JD or other manufacturors don't normally go to the expense of designing and installing a safety interlock just to tick-off their customers.

 

[Reg]

Greg mate, I don't think I'm using that big a brush (4" instead of 6" perhaps). Large caliber gun mountings & CUTs are both mindless mechanical devices that can do you damage.

Here's my thinking... The majority of work done with our tractors is individual. We do it basically alone with no one watching over us so when a stuff-up does happen, help can be a long time coming. At the very least these safety interlocks are an annoying reminder that you could be doing something dumb, to stop it and reassess the situation. How many times have people said that when something bad happens on their tractor it happens quickly.

A lot of todays tractors have cruise control. What would happen without the operator-in-seat interlock if you were blissfully in cruise control, tilling your paddock & get bounced out of your seat onto the ground? The tractor would keep on going & (worst-case) the tiller grinds you up.

I'm all for temporarily defeating the seat interlock (like putting a sack of cement in the seat) for a specific occasion. The reason for this 'qualifier' is that the situation has been thought out and will apply to that single situation at that time. When the job is done you must return the tractor to its normal operation (by removing the sack of cement).

Of course there are intelligence-insulting safety warnings all over the place. Safety Labels are cheap and cover the manufacturors collective arse. But JD or other manufacturors don't normally go to the expense of designing and installing a safety interlock just to tick-off their customers.

I can see that scenario;
Tilling, getting up to scratch, one hand on the wheel, hit a rock or hard spot, get thrown from the tractor (one hand on wheel, other hand scratching, seat belt NOT fastened), last desperate grab to stay on turns the wheel, tractor and tiller circle back around - not THAT far fetched.
Heck, it doesn't even have to be something as murderous as a tiller to do serious injury.

I don't think reminding folk that JD is an importer/re-badger of small equipment (Cat 1 tractors) is bad mouthing them.
I do think they should perform at least a sanity check on the safety design( /adaptation) for US requirements.
OTOH, gray market tractors DO require the owner to be ever more vigilant, i.e. it is ALL on the operator - sometimes a good thing, sometimes a bad thing.

I agree with the "annoying reminder" statement.
On my smallest tractor if the engine stalls due to PTO overload I have to shift the PTO to neutral and step on the clutch to re-start the engine.
I would LIKE to just step on the clutch (dual PTO clutch & drive line clutch pedal) and turn the key, but I can imagine situations where that would create other problems, so I haven't re-wired anything.

 

[Reg]

Please protect me so I don't have to think! The world is full of this stuff. ABS and traction control so I don't need to know how to drive. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad MOST people have these things. More and more people need them every day. Jumper the wires and use your head.........

Do you SERIOUSLY think you can out brake an ABS system ?
On a swept track - maybe.
On a road with imperfect surfaces - almost certainly not.
Slippery surface under the two left wheels, good traction under the two right wheels - I don't think you can, but I would hate to hear you got hurt trying.
Maybe you (think you) can do it with drum brakes ?

 

[nwltruck]

OK I'll clarify...... how many times do you get passed on a ice covered road by a person going way to fast for the conditions? Many of these things were created to save people from there own stupidity. No I can't out brake ABS. I shouldn't put myself in a situation to have to try. If I leave the seat of my tractor the brake is on.this is all that is needed to run the PTO while off the seat. The problem with mine was that the seat switch wasn't sensitive enough for my wife to run the tractor so I bypassed it.

 

[farmeratheart]

yankee,

The manual for the 2305 specifically states that off seat operation of the PTO is not possible. The scenario you describe certainly does work for the larger Deeres. I did not venture flippantly to go cutting wires and installing switches. I thought it was a simple solution to a troubling issue. I wanted the option of off-seat PTO operation with the continued safety of having the interlock during normal operation.

Frank

Interesting that some people want to bad-mouth Deere inthis forum and thread. I see complaints about not being able to rise up and scratch one's butt whileusing forks, because the engine is killed by the seat safety switch. My Yanmar-engined Deere's seat safety switch only shuts off the PTO, it doesn't kill the engine. That lets me rise up for better view ahead without the tractor shutting off. I have inadvertently stopped mowing because of it, but that is immediately apparent and only requires sitting back down and re-engaging the PTO. Also, by simply reading the owner's manual, one can learn to operate a stationary PTO attachment- like my 3 pt. woodchipper- simply by flipping the seat forward and pulling up on the seat safety switch to activate the "out of seat" PTO engaged capability- no jumpering required.

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[yankeerider]

Frank, I did not see you badmouthing Deere. I am not familiar with the 2305. I posted for the benefit of owners who may not have bothered to check their manuals like you did. In fact, I work with a guy who has owned a 4110 for several years now, and he was aking me how he could get his PTO to operate with no one in the seat. He bought his tractor used and may not have a manual. I don't know if the 4110 is set up like my 755 or not. Just suggesting people check what they got before they bad mouth or modify. You checked.

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[powerpace]

Spoken like a true OSHA fan. Most interlocks of this nature are lawyer-driven - by the Nanny state and/or corporate lawyers - looking to stay one step ahead of litigious owners. FWIW, there's another "old saw" that says interlocks eventually defeat common sense. Do you not find it ironic that one of the initial steps in competently isolating an electro-mechanical problem is to bypass the associated interlock(s)?

//greg//

Having personally detangled a person caught in the PTO and seen personally two others with pants ripped off and broken arms I will leave my safety devices connected. Thank you.

 

[greg_g]

Having personally detangled a person caught in the PTO and seen personally two others with pants ripped off and broken arms I will leave my safety devices connected. Thank you.

Anybody see Darwinism at work here? Meaningful interlocks are those conceived by actual equipment users. A significant percentage of those annoyingly thrust upon us were devised more in defense of the manufacturer/employer than of we actual users.

//greg//

 

[powerpace]

Anybody see Darwinism at work here? Meaningful interlocks are those conceived by actual equipment users. A significant percentage of those annoyingly thrust upon us were devised more in defense of the manufacturer/employer than of we actual users.

//greg//

It's not the person that dies that is responsible for his own death. In todays world it's the manufacturer.

The Mayor of Moore, Oklahoma wants all new construction (including residential) in the city to have storm shelters. So if someone dies in a storm and they have access to a storm shelter but don't use it. Can they sue the city?

 

[Reg]

Anybody see Darwinism at work here? Meaningful interlocks are those conceived by actual equipment users. A significant percentage of those annoyingly thrust upon us were devised more in defense of the manufacturer/employer than of we actual users.

//greg//

Presumably you have EVIDENCE for that statement ?
e.g. You were part of a CAB (customer advisory board) that recommended what were thought by your team to be some safety enhancements, but they were rejected in favor of some mysterious body's nonsensical recommendations - true or false ?

 

[Wagtail]

"Anybody see Darwinism at work here?"

Yes I do... And it's the encouragement to permanently bypass a safety interlock that's essentially designed to save a life. I won't be a part of that and will alwas argue against it.

I can't stop anyone from going ahead and doing this 'modification', but I won't actively promote something that would put another person in the running for a Darwin Award. Once a safety interlock is permanently gone, complacency sets in. It may never come into play for you in years to come. But sometime in the future, the one time that it is needed, it's not there.

Would you advise permanently removing the PTO guard because it's annoying when performing routine grease maintenance?

I've said it before in this thread... all that a manufacturer really has to do to cover their legal arse is to put a bright yellow warning label on the tractor/implement. A safety interlock costs money, both to design and to install.

I watched a programme on the JD 'Megafactory' building combines. In it they showed a department that is constantly designing & implementing improvements to the machine & to the building process. If a modification to the operator-not-in-seat interlock was warranted, it would be a minor process for JD to do it AND they would retro-fit the existing tractors at the next servicing.

 

[Notforhire]

" I watched a programme on the JD 'Megafactory' building combines. In it they showed a department that is constantly designing & implementing improvements to the machine & to the building process. If a modification to the operator-not-in-seat interlock was warranted, it would be a minor process for JD to do it AND they would retro-fit the existing tractors at the next servicing.

I'm in favor of safety, interlocks. They tend to protect people from brain farts ect.
What I find interesting, is in the case of John Deere and the seat interlock, there seems to be several designs.
The one that started this thread doesn't allow PTO operation w/o someone in the seat.
Another JD style allows you to flip up the seat and run the PTO. That is a built in interlock bypass of sorts.
My 5E series has a alarm that sounds when you raise out of the seat but does not shut down the engine or disconnect the PTO.
You would think that in the same year of mfg. the thinking would be consistent, model to model.
That's why I think they may have different safety regs. for different weight class machines.

Bill

 

[Wagtail]

I'm in favor of safety, interlocks. They tend to protect people from brain farts ect.
What I find interesting, is in the case of John Deere and the seat interlock, there seems to be several designs.
The one that started this thread doesn't allow PTO operation w/o someone in the seat.
Another JD style allows you to flip up the seat and run the PTO. That is a built in interlock bypass of sorts.
My 5E series has a alarm that sounds when you raise out of the seat but does not shut down the engine or disconnect the PTO.
You would think that in the same year of mfg. the thinking would be consistent, model to model.
That's why I think they may have different safety regs. for different weight class machines.

Bill

Agree with you wholeheartedly Bill. I don't know if JD monitors this fine website but there must be a way to let them know that there's a serious discussion going on here and that they should resonably standardise this interlock. I like the "flip up the seat and run the PTO" style.

Standardisation = cost savings to them & us.

 

[Notforhire]

Agree with you wholeheartedly Bill. I don't know if JD monitors this fine website but there must be a way to let them know that there's a serious discussion going on here and that they should resonably standardise this interlock. I like the "flip up the seat and run the PTO" style.

Standardisation = cost savings to them & us.

Frankly, I like the alarm system on my machine. Sometimes if I move, (not even getting out of the seat), in order to see better, the alarm may go off. This gets my attention w/o shutting down the tractor. If there is something wrong I am made aware, and can deal with it.

I had a Kubota 3240. If it was in gear, and you raised out of the seat, the engine would shut down. No matter how I set the seat adjustment, almost every time my wife stepped on the clutch the engine would shut down. Her pressure on the clutch would lift her enough to trip the seat interlock. In that case the safety system was creating a potential hazzard, by killing the power when it may be really needed. Nothing's perfect.
I have heard of many people having to bypass seat interlocks because of that problem. Once you do that, the mfg is off the hook and it's all on you. I guess that's when you need to rely on your training rather than the safety feature to save your butt.
In the case of the member putting in a bypass switch, he could put in the switch, or not be able to run his chipper. Not much of a choice.

Bill

 

[xring100]

Same with the M8540 only thing i get is a buzzer for about 10 seconds if the the PTO is on then it goes away. I had to defeat this feature on my cub zero turn my yard was bumpy enough that it would randomly sputter as i left the seat for a few milliseconds. as well as the reverse kill switch that stopped the blades anytime both levers were in reverse. I don't really feel like burning up a $300 clutch

The "safety seat" system on my 5055E doesn't kill the engine. There is a buzzer that lets you know that you didn't disengage the PTO, ect. I expect that there is something in the regs. that doesn't require an engine kill over a certain size tractor???

Kubota has a system that allows the PTO to run if the operators seat is flipped up. There must be a timer relay that gives you several seconds to get up, and flip the seat before the engine is killed.
You can get a "better view" with the Kubota system but you better be quick about it.

Bill

 

[Notforhire]

Same with the M8540 only thing i get is a buzzer for about 10 seconds if the the PTO is on then it goes away. I had to defeat this feature on my cub zero turn my yard was bumpy enough that it would randomly sputter as i left the seat for a few milliseconds. as well as the reverse kill switch that stopped the blades anytime both levers were in reverse. I don't really feel like burning up a $300 clutch

That reverse kill switch on the Z is a new one on me. I often cut in reverse for short distances trimming around electric fence with my Ferris Z.

Bill

 

[Reg]

I'm in favor of safety, interlocks. They tend to protect people from brain farts ect.
What I find interesting, is in the case of John Deere and the seat interlock, there seems to be several designs.
The one that started this thread doesn't allow PTO operation w/o someone in the seat.
Another JD style allows you to flip up the seat and run the PTO. That is a built in interlock bypass of sorts.
My 5E series has a alarm that sounds when you raise out of the seat but does not shut down the engine or disconnect the PTO.
You would think that in the same year of mfg. the thinking would be consistent, model to model.
That's why I think they may have different safety regs. for different weight class machines.

Bill

I think my earlier explanation is more likely, i.e. they merely re-badge the imported stuff with little/no attention to how each contract manufacturer has implemented US requirements.
"re-badge" may be the wrong term, it implies that they actually DO that, but they probably have the OEM make the emblems and apply them.
The US requirements may be general or even vague, I haven't checked. They probably describe WHAT is to be implemented without detailing HOW it is to be implemented.

It may be analogous to all new US spec cars being required to have seat belts and warnings if they are not fastened, but there is variety in both the seat belt fastening and the warning flashers and buzzers between Ford, Chryco, GM, Toyota, Subaru, ,,,, etc.

Yes, there are almost certainly different regulations for "Homeowner" scale equipment vs "Agricultural" and "Industrial" (construction equipment such as skid steers, back hoes) is likely even more different.

There was a thread a few years ago about how "Convenient" a particular hydro drive tractor was for an owner because he could set it to creep along while he walked in front of it to collect small rocks and chuck them in the bucket.
This IS the kind of convenience that the seat switch helps people to at least think twice about - I HOPE !

re Darwinism; Consider that many/most tractor owners have already done their breeding (-:
There is some tragic chance that a teen off-spring will be prevented from continuing the line.

 

[Wagtail]

And right on cue we have a new thread in the Safety Forum titled "Man brings suit against equipment maker for operator presence switch malfunction".

Why? The bloke was mowing and was attacked by yellowjackets, jumped off the rig in a panic to get away from them but the mower, in gear, didn't shut down & ran him down.

But, of course, that could never happen to you so go right ahead and cheat that annoying safety interlock.