Smoking #1 cylinder on My Ford 3000 Diesel

[ptgdigger]

I would say the Ebay seller put the wrong rings in your kit and I wouldn't ask him for the right one cause they seem like junk, and I still think the #1 rings are sprung or something, good cast iron rings as loose as they are on #1piston would have snapped if they were overexpanded that much.

Ideally as Duroc said you would fix this engine for another lifetime by going with bore/proper oversize pistons and rings, sometimes life shoots the ideal solution in the foot. In that case I would order an oversize ring set from YT, their separate ring sets appear to come from Hastings , which are very good rings. I'd also order the upper gasket set , you need the head and valve cover and you should get some better valve stem seals with their kit as well. Keep in mind you have to check all the ring gaps , anything less than the specs you listed earlier needs a little very careful grinding. Going below the minimum gap will result in broken rings and a heavy dose of wallet punishment.

EDIT: The new pistons are Std bore? Sorry I missed that, saw the post where you measured them but the numbers didn't register in my brain , skip the underlined part above , the max oversize you can run on a std piston is .010, you're gonna need an oversize piston/ring kit.

Ray

 

[Harold_J]

I've read this thread all the way from the beginning and i hope you have good luck in finishing up the project. It's too bad you got sidetracked with the valve guide and seal stuff in the beginning, because if like you said you had the head reworked by a competent shop they would have taken care of all that and you wouldn't have to be second guessing them. Maybe your head guy knurled the guides.

Anyway, that's all irrelevant now. I think the only real big mistake you made was not measuring the cylinders at the start. It's a little confusing because you say you've had the tractor forever and it was never rebore but in an earlier post you mentioned that some work might have been done before your father owned it.

If you had purchased .030 over pistons/rings to begin with you MIGHT have been able to get away with the somewhat cheaper rebuild you were hoping for. Right now there is no way you can use those pistons other than sleeving. If it were me I'd find out what the maximum allowed rebore is and if you can go like .040 I would take that route with new pistons and forget about sleeves for now, even if sleeves would allow you to reuse your "new" pistons and rings for slightly cheaper.

Also I would check the bearing clearances at least with plastigage, or if you pull the engine block for boring or sleeving then have the machine shop measure up the crankshaft. I know I'm only repeating much of what others have said, but I think you've been give some good advice. I feel you're lucky you didn't have some big disaster after installing those undersized pistons in the first place. Imagine if one of them shattered or busted some rings or lands; it could have ruined your block. Like I said, take it easy and good luck.

 

[sd455dan]

Well there may still be an inexpensive way out of this, if you are lucky- and it may not run at 100%
1) do you still have the .030 over pistons that came out of the engine, normally oversized pistons are marked on the crown.
2) if you do and they aren't damaged, you could check the piston /bore clearance if under about .007" it should be OK not optimal but it will work
3) Order some hastings .030 over Moly rings -if they are available, they are much more forgiving than just chrome rings and they will outlast cast iron only rings, the moly channel can withstand several thousand degrees and the moly channel is slippery- they also seat easily IMO they do cost more but they are worth it for this type of repair... the moly ring is only one of the top compression rings...
4) Check the new ring end gaps if under aprox. .030" should work ok not less than .016 " or the ring ends will but up against each other and bad things will happen..

I still wonder how cylinders 2 +3 ran fine and did not smoke, I did not see a picture with #1 pistons oil ring expander missing.?.

One other thing I am not clear on- was the original reason the engine was torn down and new std. pistons and rings ordered because of oil burning on cylinder 1 if so something is not adding up on the oil burning...

If you threw out the other pistons, Well it maybe time to start over...:2cents:

 

[mtodd101]

We all make mistakes, what really matters is if we learn from them. Obviously you have, so that's a good thing.

Whichever way you decide to do your rebuild, take the pistons, along with the block to the machine shop and have them bore/hone the cylinders to fit with the proper clearances. As for the crankshaft, it may not be necessary to do anything with it. Check for scoring, and mic it before you make a decision to have it turned. Same thing applies to all the other parts/components. And most of all... Good luck and have fun getting your tractor up and running! It will be an experience that will live with you forever.

That's a great idea, Bill. I would not of thought to bring the piston. As for the crank, I don't see any scoring and are you talking about micing under the rod bearings or the main bearing or both? My main fear is the stuff I haven't got to yet. Everything on the inside of the engine is new to me so not knowing things are stock and the way they should be, makes it harder for me. Thanks again for your input. Matt

 

[mtodd101]

Don't remember what/whether you said your piston clearance was, but I still think your bores were done .030"-over at some past time (before you owned?) with ~ .010" of cyl wear since. Gaps should be more like .016" give or take, and your rings seem to be std size, so those oil rings might be fine in a std bore without add'l expanders. (They don't usually require the same tension as compression rings & they're open-spaced to hold a bit of oil between upper & lower 'wipers' and keep the bore lubed without leaving too much of it there.)

Guess the oily-or-not thing WAS a red herring ....

Bore taper is somewhat typical with extended wear since rings don't sweep the bore's full length. (Wrist pins don't go below cyl bottoms at BDC & rings are above them) 'Side gap' allows combustion pressure to get behind them to assist compression ring sealing, with more wear possible toward the cyl's top over time.

IMO a rebore or sleeve job would be wise & worth your trouble in the long run, tho' this won't be V-twin easy. Be sure you're given the right pieces, and measure like you've been doing to match 'em up. Matt, you're 'on top of this' now! :thumbsup:

Hi Old Grind.
I'm sure they were bored .030 over. The very tops and bottoms of the cylinders are 4.233 so they must have been done before my father bought the tractor. Thanks for the encouragement. Not sure if I'm on top of things, but I learning and working my way up. Thanks again. Matt

 

[mtodd101]

I would say the Ebay seller put the wrong rings in your kit and I wouldn't ask him for the right one cause they seem like junk, and I still think the #1 rings are sprung or something, good cast iron rings as loose as they are on #1piston would have snapped if they were overexpanded that much.

Ideally as Duroc said you would fix this engine for another lifetime by going with bore/proper oversize pistons and rings, sometimes life shoots the ideal solution in the foot. In that case I would order an oversize ring set from YT, their separate ring sets appear to come from Hastings , which are very good rings. I'd also order the upper gasket set , you need the head and valve cover and you should get some better valve stem seals with their kit as well. Keep in mind you have to check all the ring gaps , anything less than the specs you listed earlier needs a little very careful grinding. Going below the minimum gap will result in broken rings and a heavy dose of wallet punishment.

EDIT: The new pistons are Std bore? Sorry I missed that, saw the post where you measured them but the numbers didn't register in my brain , skip the underlined part above , the max oversize you can run on a std piston is .010, you're gonna need an oversize piston/ring kit.

Ray

Hi Ray. Thanks for the update on the rings to pistons. I thought earlier that to much exposed rings out of the grooves would be trouble. I may be leaning towards oversized pistons and rings. I'll explain is a following post. Thanks Again for the help. Matt

 

[mtodd101]

I've read this thread all the way from the beginning and i hope you have good luck in finishing up the project. It's too bad you got sidetracked with the valve guide and seal stuff in the beginning, because if like you said you had the head reworked by a competent shop they would have taken care of all that and you wouldn't have to be second guessing them. Maybe your head guy knurled the guides.

Anyway, that's all irrelevant now. I think the only real big mistake you made was not measuring the cylinders at the start. It's a little confusing because you say you've had the tractor forever and it was never rebore but in an earlier post you mentioned that some work might have been done before your father owned it.

If you had purchased .030 over pistons/rings to begin with you MIGHT have been able to get away with the somewhat cheaper rebuild you were hoping for. Right now there is no way you can use those pistons other than sleeving. If it were me I'd find out what the maximum allowed rebore is and if you can go like .040 I would take that route with new pistons and forget about sleeves for now, even if sleeves would allow you to reuse your "new" pistons and rings for slightly cheaper.

Also I would check the bearing clearances at least with plastigage, or if you pull the engine block for boring or sleeving then have the machine shop measure up the crankshaft. I know I'm only repeating much of what others have said, but I think you've been give some good advice. I feel you're lucky you didn't have some big disaster after installing those undersized pistons in the first place. Imagine if one of them shattered or busted some rings or lands; it could have ruined your block. Like I said, take it easy and good luck.

Hi Harold . Thanks for jumping in.

The machine shop I went to didn't remember the details of my head work but friends that send there stuff to him say he just fixes thing that need fixing and most of the time it's not billed or on the invoice, so I trust that the head was done right.

My father had owned the tractor for 25+ yrs. and to the best of my knowledge, no one had opened it up to look in side, but it has obviously been bored. As far as boring .040 over, those are the biggest rings I have see advertised and I already have some spot over that so if I go the way of rebore, I probably would re sleeve it.

I agree there are some smart people here and without them I'd without any hope of fixing my tractor. Thanks for your post. I appreciate it. Matt

 

[mtodd101]

Well there may still be an inexpensive way out of this, if you are lucky- and it may not run at 100%
1) do you still have the .030 over pistons that came out of the engine, normally oversized pistons are marked on the crown.
2) if you do and they aren't damaged, you could check the piston /bore clearance if under about .007" it should be OK not optimal but it will work
3) Order some hastings .030 over Moly rings -if they are available, they are much more forgiving than just chrome rings and they will outlast cast iron only rings, the moly channel can withstand several thousand degrees and the moly channel is slippery- they also seat easily IMO they do cost more but they are worth it for this type of repair... the moly ring is only one of the top compression rings...
4) Check the new ring end gaps if under aprox. .030" should work ok not less than .016 " or the ring ends will but up against each other and bad things will happen..

I still wonder how cylinders 2 +3 ran fine and did not smoke, I did not see a picture with #1 pistons oil ring expander missing.?.

One other thing I am not clear on- was the original reason the engine was torn down and new std. pistons and rings ordered because of oil burning on cylinder 1 if so something is not adding up on the oil burning...

If you threw out the other pistons, Well it maybe time to start over...:2cents:

Hi Dan.

Short story here. I'm by nature a hoarder. I keep every nut and bolt, scrap steel, recycle lumber and anything I think I may need in the future. I made a 7' rock rake out of steel I picked and saved. So when my father passed, i spent the next 6 months or so cleaning out his shop full of broken things that he was going to use sometime in the future. That brings me to my old pistons which I had intended on reusing. The rings were almost welded into the groove and very difficult to remove. I finally set them aside and decided I'd just buy new pistons. Order the in frame rebuild kit and was on my way to being a diesel mechanic. I looked and those old pistons for awhile and thought I would never need them and I didn't want my kids having to clean up my broken pistons when I go, so the answer to question #1, regretfully no. I went against what I have always done and threw them out.

I looked at the Hastings site and there is a boat load of rings there. I'll have to spend some time there and see if I can find the rings I would need. What ever rings I get, I'll definitely check the gap...twice

The reason I chose to rebuild was it smoked so back through the exhaust and the blow by tube, very low compression and it just wouldn't start anymore. So as I'm finding out the damage was already done and should of been address sooner. Thanks for your post. Matt

 

[mtodd101]

A bit of bad news here. My wife got the news that there will be more layoffs at work and her group may be hit so this kinda forces my hand here. The problem is we won't know until September. So my choice of action has been slashed so to speak. I saw a new complete engine for $4300. That would be rather irresponsible of me. A new block was somewhere in the range of $2300. Again not in the cards. New bore and sleeves( already at .040 over in spots) was upwards of $1000. A new in frame rebuild kit is $282 for a .030 over kit. Or I could go old school and wait until Sept. and use a weed eater and shovel until then. I don't have the back for that anymore, so I'm thinking I'm going to chance another rebuild kit.

My plan is to call the seller (YT Ford 3000 Basic In-Frame Engine Rebuild Kit, 175 Diesel, .030 Pistons (BIFF1753D)) and get specs on the piston size to figure out the gaps. If they are within the manual specs I'll order the kit and check the rings in the cylinder. They have a good return policy so I'd lose the shipping If I return the kit. Not sure of a restocking fee.

So here's what I see. My cylinder is 4.233 and my standard piston is 4.1927 or 4.1952. Not sure which is the correct one. The number are 4th column from the left



So if I take the smaller of the two plus .030 over gives me 4.2227. Take that from 4.233 and I get a skirt to cylinder clearance of .0103

If I take the larger of the two plus .030 over gives me 4.2252. Take that from 4.233 and I get a Skirt to cylinder clearance of .0078

The tractor ran well, other than the smoke and oil, with a skirt to cylinder clearance of roughly .0403 to .0378 using the numbers in the manual, so I'm hoping for some improvement

These are my guesses so I won't know exact numbers until I have the kit or the seller can give them to me.

Not the ideal situation by any means but it may reduce the oil consumption and improve compression some. Then I can make a more permanent decision this fall when we have a better financial picture and if the tractor doesn't run properly or a lot of noise is coming from the engine well then it sits until things change.

Anyway, I was wondering what you guys think of the rebuild kit and the numbers that I've given. I can't tell you the appreciation I have for all the comments that have help me with my repairs. I'll post the numbers and how things turn out when I get there. Thanks again. Matt

And Happy Memorial Day to all those who are serving and have served our country. My family is very grateful. Matt

 

[Harold_J]

I know you said new bore and sleeves would be upward of $1000. Did that include the pistons and rings?

A more important question, how much would it cost you to just rebore to .040 and no sleeves? I would think the sleeving adds considerable expense. If the boring would only be a couple hundred$ and then you could go with an .040 kit I think you would have much better results and could last a long time. You still might want to check the bearings with plastigage just to see whats going on. Did you have good oil pressure before and after your rebuild attempt? I'm not a mechanic, only worked on a few engines like yourself so hopefully the experts here can give better comment and suggestion.