Saw a Coyote? on our Land

   / Saw a Coyote? on our Land #101  
Michigan DNR just reported a 20% drop in deer harvest this firearm season. Combination of late snow in the north and the EHD outbreak in the south. In my hunting area the reduction has been much worse. I only saw 4 deer of which 1 was a 2 year old buck, 2 does about the same age and a 3rd juvenile. Waiting for snow so that I can tell what coyote activity is going on at night. They do not move during the day at all during gun season, particularly with the spring weather we have had the last few weeks...
 
   / Saw a Coyote? on our Land #102  
This sounds like a direct DNR activity (only ones with jurisdiction over "big game"). There is a system in place for "crop damage" shooters in ag areas or other large properties (like parks). But nothing remotely similar for predators. Its like FAA legislation. People have to die in certain numbers, before anything will done.

The bow hunters are vetted in some way, I don't recall the details. Once accepted, they attend some sort of training seminar on the do's and don'ts of the situation.
 
   / Saw a Coyote? on our Land #103  
Shooting coyotes is far too much work for "poachers". I'm not suggesting anarchy. Shooting coyotes that are about to do damage is 100% legal in MI and does not require a small game license. BUT that law is trumped when a township enacts a shooting prohibition and is the reason I have more coyotes in my residential subdivision than on the sheep farm. THAT stupidity needs to be ended.

Heck, shooting dogs that are about to damage livestock is legal where I live. The sheriff has us give him the collar and he visits the owners that don't control their dogs.
 
   / Saw a Coyote? on our Land
  • Thread Starter
#104  
Well, this thread has really taken off. A little update, our puppy is 10 weeks old and has been spending a good deal of time outside with the kids and the playset. I have been keeping track with the security cameras on the house, and the deer cams and the Coyotes have been coming closer to the house, and more often.

Today I was working from home, and this little girl got about 150 yards away. I had just let the puppy out on the front porch to do her business. Hopefully the pic doesn't offend anyone on TBN (assume most on here have fairly thick skin) but this one will not be a worry moving forward again...
 

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   / Saw a Coyote? on our Land #105  
There is a system in place for "crop damage" shooters in ag areas or other large properties (like parks). But nothing remotely similar for predators.

This is not true. Although each state wildlife agency has its own set of regulations, it is never illegal to shoot any animal that presents a direct threat to life/safety.

Unfortunately, to some people, "I saw it" is their equivalent of a threat.

But a Depredation Permit (which is what you refer to in relation to deer and row crops) can be issued to any person whose business/livelihood is legitimately negatively impacted, for any species (with the exception of federally managed Endangered Species, although you can even get a take permit there in some cases). And that is not uncommon. Management is by definition an attempt to handle the human-wildlife interface, trying desperately to find a balance among the increasing noise as humans spread ever farther into what was once productive habitat. We are hardly gathered in our basements cackling, waiting for "people to die."

Urban bow hunters must attend and pass a hunter safety course to receive a permit here.

My equine vet raises grass-fed beef cattle and sells them as his side business. He has had coyotes attack and kill calves before the cow has even fully delivered them. I have no issue with him shooting problem individuals. I have no issue with a crop farmer shooting deer feeding on his annual income. Although I have no respect for those who gut-shoot them out of spite.

However, there is no place for villain-ization of entire species or types of wildlife. I recommend a little more time consulting your state's regulations digest and credible sources of research and information (into which category Wikipedia does not fall) and a little less time believing armchair internet theories.
 
   / Saw a Coyote? on our Land #106  
Of course there is something wrong, that's what I'm telling you. The coyotes are there because the wolves are gone. The question is, what to do about it? We tend to want wildlife strictly on our terms, as measured by how successful hunting is, but that is wrong-headed. Wildlife management has to be more than ensuring you get a deer. We know how that turns out from history.

What is wrong-headed is the idea that anything outside of a town is wilderness. It's not. It's someone's livelihood. Where I live is rugged country with mixed timber and meadow. The only thing it's good for is pasture and timber. I have a neighbor who, out of 100 bred ewes, lost all but 3 lambs to coyotes. It put him right out of the sheep business. Things are so bad that the last sheep slaughterhouse in the state closed 5 years ago, because there were no animals to keep it running. Most farmers and ranchers tolerate deer because they do minimal damage, but when a pack of wild dogs destroys the productive value of the land, those dogs have to go.
 
   / Saw a Coyote? on our Land #107  
What is wrong-headed is the idea that anything outside of a town is wilderness. It's not. It's someone's livelihood. Where I live is rugged country with mixed timber and meadow. The only thing it's good for is pasture and timber. I have a neighbor who, out of 100 bred ewes, lost all but 3 lambs to coyotes. It put him right out of the sheep business. Things are so bad that the last sheep slaughterhouse in the state closed 5 years ago, because there were no animals to keep it running. Most farmers and ranchers tolerate deer because they do minimal damage, but when a pack of wild dogs destroys the productive value of the land, those dogs have to go.

There is very little real wilderness anywhere near human habitation, or even far away. I understand that, and it is not what I said in any case. We have to do the best with what we have to work with. I don't consider wild/feral dogs as wildlife.

Thinking there is no possible method the rancher can use to raise sheep safely and profitably without eliminating predators is not true. It is a question of real costs being applied to the marketplace.

I realize that is no answer for the farmer going out of business. However, if you step back and realize that the attempt to raise sheep failed, likely while many predators were eliminated, then what is Plan B? Why not just accept that the wildlife, within reason, is and needs to be a part of the landscape and develop successful strategies? You can't pretend you are in New Zealand, or England and expect success.

How much would the cost of protection in the form of better fencing, guard animals, shepherds or whatever, add to the price of lamb on a per pound basis? The lamb in stores here is ridiculously over-priced now. That may be due to marketing or market development failures as good lamb is better eating than most people realize IMO.

However it happens, the market needs to reflect the value of ranching and the value wildlife. They are both worth a lot. As it is, wildlife destruction is being treated as a zero cost, and yet you say there are not enough lambs to be viable. Double fail.

Those are the types of issues that conservation groups are wrestling with. In the East, conservation easements are purchased and donated that keep development (our worst predator) out of productive farm and timber lands. Maine is doing well in that area, probably because it has some of the least expensive land in the Northeast.

The key seems to be education. If people understand what is at stake, they are generally supportive. For Western lamb ranching, my guess is that ranchers are caught between low prices from Australia & New Zealand and the higher costs imposed by environmental concerns, and perhaps weather, here. I have never seen an attempt in this area to promote lamb like the beef, pork and dairy producers do. Building a market would do wonders for the situation.

Among many people in the East, Western ranchers carry a stereo-type of being willing and happy to shoot anything. That's bad for business. People don't believe they are trying hard enough to find balance. True or not, it's the perception or image that counts. That image is very tarnished.

We read about someone in Idaho bragging about shooting the first wolf. Or, elk hunters whining about the wolves. As far as I know, the wolf restoration has done wonders for the Yellowstone NP ecosystem, and I'm sure they eat plenty of elk--that was the plan. If my understanding is correct, those hunters don't give a hoot for conservation or wildlife; something hunters always claim to do.

We have our own issues with wolves, not many people are willing to accept them but they all know how terrible the coyotes are "eating all the deer." Never mind that the timber companies destroyed much of the wintering yards which weakens and concentrates the deer herd making them easy prey. Or, that a hard winter kills more deer than the coyotes ever will.
 
   / Saw a Coyote? on our Land #108  
Wow! I guess size does matter. I'm glad to live where folks have learned to live with predators and don't have the feeling that they need to be managed, thinned or eliminated. You all have a good evening now.

This week. Next week somebody will thin a few for you.
 
   / Saw a Coyote? on our Land #110  
In the meantime, while we wait for a miracle in Washington (not going to happen so long as people on welfare get $60k/yr in benefits, we have unionized government workforce, defense industry needs the war on terror, alphabet agencies need to justify their existence)....

I say let the ones who are bothered by the predators shoot them. Let the ones who don't mind them carry on. Killing every coyote that sets foot on the sheep farm is not going to result in their extermination. That 100 acres is surrounded by 300+ acres of corn and other grain fields with not a single residence in sight. Most of our home grown meat comes from massive feed lot operations. Very little land is used for free range livestock anymore, except by deliberate choice of the rancher with the full understanding of the economic impact of doing so. If it was up to me, feed lots would be outlawed, as would the caged poultry farms. If one wants to talk about cruelty on an industrial scale, there it is. The problem is that people like that cheap food and do not care about the wretched lives the animals lived.

The sheep on the farm may on average only live for a year and a half or 2, but they live the way sheep were intended to. The coyotes, until the moment they encounter a 95gr bullet at 3200fps, have also lived the way coyotes were intended to. Shooting at and killing the coyotes sends the accompanying coyotes the message that they are not welcome and they are fast learners. This is a never ending circle. The surrounding 300 acres will continue to produce replacements and particularly the older ones are ultimately attracted to the prospect of killing an abundant supply of incredibly stupid sheep. Then it is time for them to go.

When do-gooders step in and want all shooting outlawed, that is when these kind of businesses fail. When people finally realize there is a major problem, then it is OK to shoot them from helicopters or poison them on a massive scale, as long as the people doing the work wear a badge....

You need to learn about the beef industry. Almost all beef raised in the USA is pastured, either on grass or stover. They only go to a feedlot for finishing, which is a brief episode in the cow's life. Raising stock for a feedlot is known as a stocker operation, where a stocker becomes a feeder.

Sheep that live brief lives are meat sheep. Very few sheep are slaughtered in the USA any more. Almost all of our lamb comes from Australia or New Zealand. Most American sheep are shorn for their wool, and live many years.

Yes, chickens and hogs are raised in confinement operations. Cattle are not, except for dairy cattle. Blame the milk drinkers.
 

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