Help, rough running engine in cold temps

[SI2305]

OK, I would love input on this brain-dead move of mine

I went outside to start the tractor again to see if I could get it running smoothly. Suddenly it dawned upon me I AM RUNNING WITHOUT MY AIR FILTER. This raises at least a couple of new questions:

1) can the bad air filter be ruled out as it was running without a filter

2) does this lend credence to the t-stat theory

3) did I do any damage. Total running time was less than 2 minutes, the cap to the filter assembly was on and locked in place, the conditions in the garage were cold and free of any obvious dust

Thanks with my tail between my legs,

SI2305

 

[kuboman]

So you broke the rule of mechanics. You put something back together to the point it looks like everything is right. TskTsk:duh: I doubt you hurt anything so don't worry. A very dirt air filter or one that has gotten wet at some point can cause a diesel to run very poorly.

 

[Tx Jim]

SI2305
I agree with kuboman that running your tractor for 2 minutes without the air cleaner won't harm it especially if the "inner" air filter element was still in place.

 

[Henri88]

SI2305, what year is your 2305? The air filter you are showing in the pics looks to be the secondary filter. Hard to tell from the pics. Where is the primary filter or maybe the older model don't have it? Mine is a 2008 and here a pics of the primary filter. The secondary filter is inside that one. I don't have a pics of the second one but if you need to see it I can take a run to my garage and get one for you. I also could be wrong and the pics of your filter could be the primary one. Either way, I think there should be 2 filters. The 2 minutes it ran without the filter did not damage anything as it was only park outside not working in the dust or anything. If this is your secondary air filter it definitely need to be change, but check see if their should be a primary one also. It could be a few things that is causing your problem, but you have to replace your fuel filter first. There is a red plastic ring in the bottom of the fuel filter bowl. This ring will float if you have water in the bowl. Those to me is your first step to take. After that, it could be your injectors or fuel pump. I hate to bring this up, but I had to replace my engine at 300hrs with symptoms that sound somewhat like yours. If you look into my older tread under ''2305 engine needs to be rebuilt'' you can maybe compare a few thinks but lets not get ahead of our self. Do it step by steps. Start with your filters.

 

[Labrat]

I would do what Henri said and replace the primary air filter along with the fuel filter and clean the bowl. It sounds like you park the machine outside so I would run some Power Service through it as well. My friend had the same issue with an old 755. the new fuel filter and Power Service cleared it up in a few minutes.

 

[SI2305]

I don't have a pic of it, but the inner filter looks absolutely pristine. This was definitely the outer filter and evidently all the mowing I have done with it has really gotten it dirty as of late. Labrat--I used to park the machine outside. It has slept indoors now for 2 years. I could be wrong, but I don't think its parking location is the cause for these symptoms. Thanks to all for the reassurance that the 2 min running time without the outside filter did not cause catastrophic damage.

Henri, do you know why 2305's needed to have their engines rebuilt after such a short period of time? 300 hours seems awfully short-lived. Incidentally, I was able to get a look at the fuel filter/bowl setup and it looked horrible. Definitely time to replace which I will do tomorrow as soon as the dealer opens up.

Thanks to all,

SI2305

 

[SPYDERLK]

OK, I would love input on this brain-dead move of mine

I went outside to start the tractor again to see if I could get it running smoothly. Suddenly it dawned upon me I AM RUNNING WITHOUT MY AIR FILTER. This raises at least a couple of new questions:

1) can the bad air filter be ruled out as it was running without a filter

2) does this lend credence to the t-stat theory

3) did I do any damage. Total running time was less than 2 minutes, the cap to the filter assembly was on and locked in place, the conditions in the garage were cold and free of any obvious dust

Thanks with my tail between my legs,

SI2305

As everyone has said, no damage. Just be sure to replace the filter before taking the tractor into situations that might be dusty.
Flashpoint of diesel is very high in comparison to gas. In many cases start and initial run of a diesel is modiffied by some servo mechanism in the tractor to help it run while cold and to aid warmup. Im not familiar with the specifics of yours, but in some this modified period just times out rather than actually assuring that warmup has occured. With this period of mod ended and the engine still cold you can easily see a wet stacking situation where the engine sputters and emits white vapor from the exhaust when you try to take power. If the t stat is stuck open you will not be able to warm the engine in cold weather unless you significantly block airflow thru the radiator. Unfortunately, since its not equipped with a heat gauge the temperature is guesswork. ... Maybe you can instigate "warmlike" running by feeding the intake with a hair drier on full heat. -- With the filter out youre set for it. -- If 1500 W of intake air heating alleviates the problem youll know w/i minutes and it will piont toward the wet stack possibility.
larry

 

[Labrat]

Parking outside can cause moisture to condense in the fuel system and can absolutely cause those symptoms. It is also known that bacteria can grow in the fuel system (called diesel bug) that will also cause these symptoms and Power Service will correct this as well.

 

[SI2305]

Henri,

I checked with your post about needing an engine rebuild. Yes, a lot of the symptoms sound similar, but one striking difference is that you apparently had oil on your filter. Mine, though black and beyond needing replacement, is absolutely dry. The dust on it is as fine as talcum. Gets all over my hands but washes off with water alone. Hopefully this means no fuel getting to the filter which would certainly be catastrophic. Bought my 2305 in Nov. 2005 and this would be my first replacement of my air filter. I did restart the tractor again just to get the loader back down to the float position and I found the fuel filter/water bowl--disgusting black. I gave it a slight twist just to make certain that it would come off without any major issues. I plan to take both the air filter and fuel filter/bowl to the dealer tomorrow to get new ones.

On a slightly different topic, I had wondered if the injectors were fowled. Some of the fuel conditioner I added said it would clean injectors too. Does anyone know how well they work? My greatest fear was that any sediment they cleaned off would end up clogging the fuel filter--redundant now anyway

Thanks again for the input

SI2305

 

[3930dave]

Sounds like the fuel filter is doing it's job.

If you are dealing with a lot of black guck in the fuel filter, you may have Labrat's bugs growing in your diesel too. Plan on picking up biocide (anti-microbial) treatment as well at the dealer, and dose all your fuel at the specified rate - I'd probably drain what is in the tractor tank, at least to inspect it - any doubts and dispose of it safely.

Short of archival storage facilities (meaning Jay Leno's kind of money/shop), storing a tractor inside does not guarantee that you will have no condensation/water issues - well, for those of us that don't live in the middle of desert anyway.....

Dealing with temperature and humidity swings, I consider it prudent and cheap insurance to treat my diesel fuel with a quality additive all year long, not just in Winter.

That was my long winded way of saying this problem didn't happen overnight. Once you get past this problem, review your fuel storage and handling practices, and adjust accordingly. As you'll find doing the research, these type of problems have become more pronounced with ULSD now being the only fuel available.

Don't just buy one fuel filter, as it's always a good idea to have a spare on the shelf, for Murphy is always lurking !

Good luck, sounds like you are getting close to a fix.

Rgds, D.

 

[Coyote machine]

Wow, this thread is jumping all over the place with engine rebuilds, bugs and other things like wet stacking.
First simplest things first. change out the air and fuel filter and start her up and go from there. The air filter being off has done nothing to harm the tractor. Removing it has allowed it to start without having an air restriction that was there previously due to the filter needing to be changed.
Now you've found the fuel filter is jammed up too. So clean the bowl, install a new filter and let's see where you are at.
I doubt you have a stuck thermostat, wet stacking, a need to rebuild your engine, or anything else. What you DO have is a prior to now lousy maintenance plan, poorly executed at best.
You might possibly have some poor quality fuel, but that too remains to be seen.
fuel treatment does not pass clogged injector gunk into the fuel filter. The fuel comes from the tank, passes through the fuel filter then it passes to the injection pump and finally through to the injectors, period.
Jump to no conclusions, waste no time on other theories, get the fuel and air filters changed and then let's see where you're at- OK?!

 

[mfreund]

Is your fuel Biodiesel blend?? It could do this if the oil part if the fuel is solid.

 

[pmhowe]

Wow, this thread is jumping all over the place with engine rebuilds, bugs and other things like wet stacking.
First simplest things first. change out the air and fuel filter and start her up and go from there. The air filter being off has done nothing to harm the tractor. Removing it has allowed it to start without having an air restriction that was there previously due to the filter needing to be changed.
Now you've found the fuel filter is jammed up too. So clean the bowl, install a new filter and let's see where you are at.
I doubt you have a stuck thermostat, wet stacking, a need to rebuild your engine, or anything else. What you DO have is a prior to now lousy maintenance plan, poorly executed at best.
You might possibly have some poor quality fuel, but that too remains to be seen.
fuel treatment does not pass clogged injector gunk into the fuel filter. The fuel comes from the tank, passes through the fuel filter then it passes to the injection pump and finally through to the injectors, period.
Jump to no conclusions, waste no time on other theories, get the fuel and air filters changed and then let's see where you're at- OK?!

I'm with Coyote Machine. He's giving good advice. Let us know how it works out.

 

[SI2305]

Coyote machine, mfreund and others,

Generally I have kept up on the maintenance schedule, mostly in the changing of oil and hydraulic fluid. My biggest error has definitely been in the fuel filter (non) maintenance. Don't get me wrong, I am going to replace the air filter, but I don't think this is the culprit as the problem persists even with the filter missing. The fuel filter, on the other hand, seems to be the most likely culprit given its extremely dark color. I don't really think that I have microbes in the fuel as this applies to stored fuel that has sat for a long time and I go through my two 5 gallon cans too quickly for the little bugs to develop. Again, it seems most likely that the fuel filter is filtering everything--including a good portion of the fuel!

As a preventative for future problems, I was considering simply getting the inside of the machine washed more often. I actually had to look for the filter in order to find it! I know that cars have a sort of shampoo to make them look all sparkly clean. Would the same work on the tractor?

Thanks again

SI2305

 

[SI2305]

Here is a pic of the side of the tractor with my embarrassingly dirty fuel filter. I was thinking that a generally cleaner interior would help highlight the condition of the fuel filter. Or I just need to get my hands dirty and get the job done. I have kept up on the other aspects (basically fluids, tire pressure and greasing) but this one slipped through. no one to blame but myself.

SI2305

 

[3930dave]

Changeout the F filter - you now clearly appreciate its' value :thumbsup:.

You may find some of the "darkness" is just buildup on the inside of the fuel sight bowl - you'll know soon enough.

For general exterior engine cleaning, I often just grab my bottle of Simple Green - soak, scrub, rinse usually does it. I keep SG around for other reasons, and have used it for a long time - one thing I like is its' low toxicity.

Your engine may look dirty compared to parade queens, but is still way better than a lot of working equipment I've seen. Clean looks good, and can help you identify issues as they are emerging.

Rgds, D.

 

[Henri88]

Coyote machine, If you read my first post you would see that I have pretty much said the same thing as you. Lets not jump the gun here. First thing first. Change the fuel filter, if that doesn't do it move to the next step etc.

 

[Henri88]

Henri, do you know why 2305's needed to have their engines rebuilt after such a short period of time? 300 hours seems awfully short-lived. Incidentally, I was able to get a look at the fuel filter/bowl setup and it looked horrible. Definitely time to replace which I will do tomorrow as soon as the dealer opens up.

Thanks to all,

SI2305

2305 don't need to have their engine rebuild at 300hrs. This is very low hrs for these Yanmar engine. We figure that mine was just pure bad luck.

 

[Henri88]

Quote ''Henri,

I checked with your post about needing an engine rebuild. Yes, a lot of the symptoms sound similar, but one striking difference is that you apparently had oil on your filter.''

Not oil on my filter, Oil in my air intake. If you follow the direction of the air flow after the air filter, this is where the air intake is on top of the engine. You have to remove the intake cover to see it. But don't worry about that right now. You have many other test to do.

 

[SI2305]

3930dave

Thanks for the input on Simple Green. Just spray on and hose off. Generally I am doing this for the pragmatic issue of seeing problems before they manifest into much bigger ones like I have now and yes, I too have seen some pretty filthy machines working hard.

Though I don't want a parade queen, I do like the look of my new seat. My old one was getting pretty ratty after 8 years so I found a new one that just felt nice. I had to make it fit but it sure is purdy compared to the old duck taped one I had