stick welder question

[Mark @ Everlast]

A lot of good electricians don't know that there are separate wiring codes for welders. I've gotten many a call from them looking for a "neutral" wire, or one telling me the wires were heavy enough etc.

Anyone with a copy can look up section 630 of the NEC.

 

[DXN1EL]

National Electrical Code Tips: Article 630, Electric Welders

 

[Willie B]

When you are talking about a welder, there is NO neutral...if it's just for that circuit, and no other way to hook up a dryer or whatever, and no way to utilize one.

Mudstopper wasn't talking about wiring a welder. Once he leaves the breaker panel in the garage, two wire plus ground is fine. Supplying a garage with 120/240 requires three insulated conductors plus a grounding conductor.

 

[muddstopper]

Mudstopper wasn't talking about wiring a welder. Once he leaves the breaker panel in the garage, two wire plus ground is fine. Supplying a garage with 120/240 requires three insulated conductors plus a grounding conductor.

Willie, I am not an electrician, so I dont know if your right or not. I was just offering up a work around where the OP could use his exsisting wire to get 220V in his shop. What I suggested will work as long as the Op does supply the extra grounding wire to a ground rod driven in the ground. Currently, my shop is wired in this manner, altho I have much bigger wire (#6) from the house to the shop. I have two welders, Plasma cutter and a 14in Monarch lathe on 220v circuits and then the drill press and air compressor on 110v. It has been this way since 1984 and I have never had any problems. Maybe code was different back then, but the building inspectors signed off on it.

When I look at the powerlines coming into my house, there are 2 insulated and one bare wire carrying 220v, there in no insulated neutral. I feel what I have done is simply just and extention of what the power company did when they ran the electricity to the house.

Just talked to son, Code change in 2011. Must use 3 insulated wires (2 postive and 1 neutral) and ground and a ground rod. Unless its a dedicated 220v circuit, such as a welder. For a dedicated circuit, 2 insulated wires and a ground, plus ground rod. Interesting to note, both neutral and ground are bonded to the same lug in the switch panel at the point of entry to the switch panel. I aint smart enough to understand why, but it looks to me if the neutral and ground are bonded at any point, then both wires are actually working as one. Son tried to explain it to me, but I still cant grasp the concept.

 

[Willie B]

Yes, it is a recent change to require a grounding conductor. The requirement for a neutral conductor isn't new. The exemption from grounding electrode is for a single branch circuit. When you install a breaker panel and branch to lighting etc. the underground wire becomes a feeder. Then, present NAEC requires both a grounding conductor from house, and an electrode system at garage. There is an exemption for feeders installed without grounding conductor, if the installation complied with earlier code. The inspector I deal with has ruled in a similar scenario that it was installed with a grounding conductor, and the present desire to re purpose the grounding conductor to create a grounded (neutral conductor) doesn't qualify you for this exemption. That said, your inspector may see it differently. I wondered if there was a requirement for an insulated neutral. I haven't found it.
If the only circuit in the building were the welder using the present two wire cable would only violate color code. If I were going out on a limb to do it I would at least use red tape on both ends of the white conductor, and white tape on both ends of the bare conductor. If the house panel is a sub panel neutral (grounded) and bare (equipment grounding) buses should be separate. "Grounding" and "grounded" systems are bonded to each other at only one point in the home service equipment, usually a screw through the grounded (white wire) buss into the panel enclosure.
The garage breaker panel should then be bonded between Grounded and grounding busses then to the earth electrodes. See article 225 and 250.

 

[arrow]

In you shop breaker box, you would take the Neutral (white wire) off the ground busbar and connect to the opposite (Positive) busbar than the one the Positive, (black wire) is hooked to.

Mud, could you re-state this sentence. It is confusing to me. The way it possibly reads is that I'm connecting the neutral to a positive busbar which is opposite to the existing positive busbar? Then run a ground wire from the shop box ground where the ground used to be to a grounding rod? Correct? I already have two 30 amp breakers in the house connected to the 10 wire out to the garage. (why did the guy put in two 30 amp breakers and not one if its 115v)

 

[arrow]

I would suggest a 50Amp.(later on you would want a 50Amp welder) Get 200FT of 4Gauge,
for the ground have a bar near the outlet.

This would be fine for a person doing actual welding. If I run 6" of weld per year I'm doing something. What I do is cut out the stuff, tack it together and then bring it to the welding shop. I just want something that I can actually strike a bead with and not have to scratch the rod 11,000 times before I can get anything that resembles an arc.

 

[k0ua]

This would be fine for a person doing actual welding. If I run 6" of weld per year I'm doing something. What I do is cut out the stuff, tack it together and then bring it to the welding shop. I just want something that I can actually strike a bead with and not have to scratch the rod 11,000 times before I can get anything that resembles an arc.

Arrow have you tried 7014 rod, it strikes and maintains and arc pretty easily.. or maybe 6013, also and easy starter.

 

[EMB5530]

k0ua has a good point there.
Also, I myself have found that KT industries rod is junk and you are better off w/ lincoln or esab but, I find lincoln rod is easier to strike though I like the way esab rods weld out.

 

[BukitCase]

Hopefully I can clarify the neutral vs. ground thing -

The NEC is sometimes hard to understand, and this subject is no exception -

First, you can't have a complete electrical circuit without a complete path for the electricity to flow thru, so

A 120 volt circuit's complete path is from the "hot" 120 volt (black wire) through the device, then back to ground through the NEUTRAL wire ONLY. The third, (green) wire is a SAFETY ground, which should draw ZERO current unless there is a FAULT in the device being powered, or in the wiring.

NEC uses two "suffixes" to sort this out - groundING is used to denote the SAFETY ground, and groundED (neutral) means that, although that conductor is attached to the SAME LUG in the panel as the GROUNDING (safety) wire, the groundED (neutral) wire is the ONLY wire that should be carrying current.

All the above is for a 120 volt circuit.

240 volt -

Your electrical panel has two "buses" - the two rails that connect each breaker to the incoming power.

Both of these "buses" will measure 120 volts to ground, but, since we're dealing with sine wave AC power, one bus will be at its NEGATIVE peak at the same time the OTHER bus is at it's POSITIVE peak voltage. In "tech speak", the two busses are 180 degrees out of phase.

This means that if you connect a meter or device between BOTH of these buses, you will get 240 volts AC.

It ALSO means that, with NO OTHER WIRES, you would have a COMPLETE CIRCUIT for your 240 volt device, and IT WOULD WORK.

Soooo, for a 240 volt circuit, the only use for the third wire is the same as a 120 volt circuit's GREEN wire - SAFETY. Or to put it another way, a 240 volt circuit has ZERO wires that are both groundED and still (normally) carry current.

Newer code, among other things, takes into account newer (smarter) devices such as smart stoves, which need 240 volts for adequate power but ALSO have electronics that want 120 volts - this brings up the 4-wire 240 volt part -

Instead of just two "hots" for 240 volts and GROUND for safety, it also supplies a SEPARATE NEUTRAL for a SEPARATE return. This new NEUTRAL is used as a return for any 120 volt parts of your "smart stove" - typically electronic controls, etc.

This arrangement satisfies ALL requirements - you still have a ZERO current GROUND for SAFETY (for both 120 and 240 volt stuff), and a groundED neutral return for 120 volt circuits, which DOES have current flow.

And yes, both ground wires and neutral wires connect to the same lug at one point (in the panel) - but ONLY THE NEUTRAL should be flowing current, or you have a PROBLEM.

Hopefully I covered things understandably - but since these types of threads usually go on forever, I'm sure that eventually it'll get sorted out :thumbsup: ... Steve