Willie B
Silver Member
Is the panel shown in the picture the only one in the house?
stick welder question
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Aaron I took the panel frame off to peer inside the sub panel box. It is a jumble in there and you cannot see much and I am absolutely the wrong guy to start sticking my fingers in there to move things around. I would know what to do if a tree fell on my house but this is beyond my parameters.. The garage panel has the one wire coming into it and then separates into a few 20 and 15 amp breakers.
All the guys are correct: I need to get someone who knows what they're doing to look at all this. I'd be tickled pink if indeed it has a 220 feed into the garage as all this time I had no idea I had two 30 amp breakers going out but if that were truly the case, one would think they'd be in tandem as well. Thanks for everyone's attempts to decipher this. I thought it might be easier than "my tractor won't start" but it seems nothing is easy. I'll inform what's going on when I find out from a professional.
Mudd, that 15 amp double breaker is for the well pump supplying water to the out buildings. The wire out to the garage is 10/2.
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muddstopper
Veteran Member
So that panel does have 240v in it. That still doesnt explain why there are 2 120v breakers to supply power to the shop, and only one 10/2 wire to run that power. Have you removed the panel cover in your shop to verify that the wire used is actually 10/2 from the house panel to the shop panel? I may not be seeing what I think I see, but what I see doesnt look right. If the wire is indeed 10/2 and both breakers are going to the shop, then you dont even have a neutral for your 120 v power and power is returning directly to ground on the bare wire. That would mean evey time you turn on a light or anything else, your ground wire will become hot. If you have removed the cover on the panel in your house, look at the 2 green breakers and see if one breaker has a black wire attached and the other has a white wire attached. If so, you need to call an electrician pronto, because that would be completely wrong.
Willie B
Silver Member
The biggest shortcoming of NAEC is the index. Going back 30 years I haven't found where this is wrong.
I was once called in after a low bid contractor's work failed. In a renovation of one floor in a battered women's shelter he had tapped a 100 year old # 14 knob and tube circuit adding 4 large dormitory style bedrooms, and a bathroom. I complained to the chief electrical inspector, feeling this was so serious a violation, legal action was warranted. The chief inspector stated that the inspector inspecting this installation had wanted what I now wanted. They couldn't find in code anywhere that this wasn't OK! The installation passed inspection, even though it couldn't possibly work.
Based on older (30 year old) code I believe he needs to re identify colors, change to 2 pole breaker, label the breaker in the house, identify the source of feeder supplying house sub panel, the source of feeder supplying garage, confirm the quality of the earth electrode, ascertain whether any conductive pipes etc. run between house and garage, make sure the installation offers adequate protection as it leaves the ground to enter either building, and confirm earth grounds bond to neutral in one place in garage, and one place in house servive equipment.
muddstopper
Veteran Member
Willie, I aint saying this wont work, in essence, its pretty much what my suggestion was for just swapping out the breaker to a 240v breaker and swapping the wires. The big problem I see now, it appears that there are 2 120v breakers being used to already supply 240v power to his shop. These 2 120v breakers are not pinned together so in case of a short both breakers cant trip at the same time. I can only guess that his shop has multiple circuits and breakers at 120v each, and his shop is only wired for 120v oulets with no 240v outlets. If someone was to go in and just add a 240 outlet and it was to get overloaded, it would be possible for only one breaker to trip and still leave 120v power going to the 240v appliance being used at the time. I would at the very least swap out those 2 green breakers for one 240v breaker, as it appears to me he already has 240v at his shop panel. I would take a Meter and check across the black and white wire going to his shop and see if there is 240v present. If there is, I would swap the 2 green breakers out to a single 240v breaker. Add a 240v breaker at the shop panel and wire in the outlet for the welder, and make dang sure the shop panel is grounded to a rod driven in the ground outside the shop. He still wont have a neutral for his 120v circuits, but the way it appears to me now, he already doesnt have a neutral at his shop.
Willie B
Silver Member
Yup, Two pole breaker, or "listed" handle ties. It sounds to me he has a neutral, Is it connected to the neutral buss in his house sub panel? Is his house sub panel fed with 4 conductor cable? Does he have separated neutral and grounding busses in this house sub panel? As answers aren't forthcoming, he says he isn't qualified to rectify problems, and I suspect he has quite a number of hazards, I would like to see a qualified electrician look it over. Not all electricians are ogres who rob people blind. I bet his car gets maintenance more often than 30 years. In fact I bet he has replaced his entire car a number of times in thirty years. Some of the knob and tube developed by Westinghouse 100 years ago is still in use, and compliant with code. I don't feel newer wiring methods have as long a life. Get it checked out!
Well, I confirmed today that there is indeed 250v to the shop. There is also a ground wire attached to a buried rod out there. Correct me if I'm wrong but I need to do two main things along with a host of other safety checks. Get a 2 pole 30 amp breaker for the shop and gang together the two 30 amp breakers in the house. Should be good to go. Now I can get some kind of Everlast welder if indeed I can ever be gotten back to. (2 emails and a pm with no response)
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BukitCase
Elite Member
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Having seen one instantaneous death, one crippling for life, and too many other debilitating injuries to mention during my working life, (all electrical related) I'm 100 percent with Willie on this - you've told us just enough to make us EXTREMELY UNCOMFORTABLE with the thought of you trying to do this on your own - PLEASE, pay a PROFESSIONAL to sort this out for you - or at least, up your ACCIDENTAL DEATH policy to a $million or so, so your FAMILY can support themselves after you've gone.
Seriously, there are NO DO-OVERS here - it ain't like cutting a board too short - you can always get another board, NOT SO MUCH when caskets are involved... Steve
Seriously, there are NO DO-OVERS here - it ain't like cutting a board too short - you can always get another board, NOT SO MUCH when caskets are involved... Steve
Not in a million years Bukit would I do this on my own. I first needed to understand what I have or not. I confirmed I have 220 out there because my bil the former electrical lineman came over with his tester and confirmed the set up.
I also whole heartedly agree with what Willie has to say. I can run wire and put in an outlet but after that I full well know electricity should not be messed with by the ignorant. I am happy however to learn of the potential of having a 220 welder.
Mark @ Everlast
Advertiser
Arrow, I haven't gotten said emails. I did see the pm, and sent a reply...at least I thought I had. I'll go back and look for it and either resend it or do a new one.
BukitCase
Elite Member
- Joined
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- Albany OR
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- Case 580B, Long 460, Allis-Chalmers 160
Arrow, you have NO IDEA how relieved you just made me, thanks for the clarification of your intent...
Also, you've just been contacted by the man Everlast needs to find maybe 20 MORE of - Mark.
He'll treat you right, if Everlast doesn't kill him off first. They seriously need more manpower like Mark, who is a FAR better weldor than I'll EVER be, and at least as nice/helpful as me
Steve
Also, you've just been contacted by the man Everlast needs to find maybe 20 MORE of - Mark.
He'll treat you right, if Everlast doesn't kill him off first. They seriously need more manpower like Mark, who is a FAR better weldor than I'll EVER be, and at least as nice/helpful as me
Stevemuddstopper
Veteran Member
You say it sounds to you as he does have a neutral, Please explain. If he has 2 insulated wires and one bare grounding wire going to his shop and 240v, where is the neutral for the 120v circuit?
Willie B
Silver Member
He has one bare grounded wire or neutral.
In some cases NAEC does not require that a neutral be insulated. I would need to do more research to confirm that 30 years ago it was or wasn't acceptable to use the bare conductor as a neutral. The requirement for a grounding conductor is recent. 30 years ago the requirement was two "hot" insulated conductors and a neutral or grounded conductor. I'm a little vague whether it was then required to be insulated. No grounding conductor was then required. In that day we routinely ran three THHN conductors in conduit to a garage. At the garage it was treated as a house, 3 insulated conductors. We grounded at the garage as we do at the house even now. I'll look for older code books, the oldest In the office is 1999. The old ones are in the cellar.
1999 code appears to require insulated neutrals with exceptions, (in article 230-22,30, and 41) as part of multiconductor cables, in services overhead, underground, or service entrance cables. The conductors we are discussing are part of a feeder. Article 225-4 Exception addresses overhead feeders. If 1999 code exempts feeders underground from insulated neutral requirements, I haven't found it.
While I still don't know where this bare conductor is connected at either end, it must be functioning as a neutral or grounded conductor, 120V loads wouldn't work. I believe the lack of insulation on it is where the most difficult to rectify violation exists.
The worst shock of my life was from a bare, dead, overhead service neutral. A remote home with no other transformers within a mile had a power outage, line fuse had blown. In my mind there was no power in the area. Working on the damaged neutral, I became the conductor from the transformer center tap which was bonded to high voltage ground conductor. The entire electrical grid sought to reach ground through my right hand, through my body, out the left and on to earth via the home's grounding system. I couldn't let go! Brain said let go, hands wouldn't respond. My feet did work, I was able to back away and pull off it. Forearm muscles were sore a long time! I've been more careful since!
