Grapple Best "rock" grapple for CUT?

[sdef]

HillCountry: We had a lot of rain all week but I was able to get the tractor and implements out to the property today. Last weekend and yesterday, I cut all of the trees for the driveway and left the last 3' - 4' of trunk to make it easier to remove the root ball. So today I had to remove the remnants of trees the first 150' of driveway to get to a semi-usable point off the side of the drive to make an area 25' long and 25' deep to place the 4 x 4s I use to set my implements on and have a combined area in conjunction with the 15' wide driveway area so I can more easily change implements.

This area was full of trees, as the whole property is and one does not walk on the ground here, one just walks on top of rocks. It is not even possible to drive a stake into the ground as there are just rocks on top of rocks. And there is very little room to maneuver a 21' long tractor and it is a constant- move fwd a few feet, turn the wheel and backup a few feet, etc., etc, all day long. And since I was doing all of this maneuvering in a relatively small area, I made a lot of large ruts- probably axle deep, that I also had to maneuver around and this constantly changed the angle of the rock bucket as I was trying to scoop up the rocks and level the dirt.

I was in constant 4WD and rear differential lock most of the day with multiple tires spinning most of the time. But I finally got the trees cleared out, this part relatively level (on an original 10 - 15 degree uphill slant) and the rocks interfering with leveling dumped farther back, outside the area I cleared for implement storage. I am telling you all of this so maybe you can get a mental picture of what I had to deal with.

My original premise held true, except that I removed all of the rocks- some 24" - 32" diameter that had to be dug out, with the 48" Wild Kat rock grapple and only experimented with the ROBB vs. using each 50-50, as originally planned. Once I am able to get back to doing the length of the driveway, I feel I will still use the ROBB as originally planned with the scarifiers several inches under the surface to turn the larger rocks upright and then either pick them up with the rock bucket and/or maybe use the ROBB's blade to pull the surfaced rocks to one side and then maybe use a bucket to scoop them up. My goal is not to remove all of the rocks, but to level the surface so I can add gravel for the driveway surface. It would be impossible to remove all of the rocks as I am convinced a glacier much have ended its travel right at the front half of my property.

It will still require some experimenting, but at this point I think my original plans are still relatively intact. And if I do run into some boulders I can't handle, I will just work around it/them until I get done and will have a mini-x come out and dig them up for me. If memory servers correctly, last year I paid $400 for four hours with each additional hour at $65 or so. I believe this will be my least expensive, most expedient option.

Also, the Wild Kat 48" rock bucket worked admirably, with nothing bent and no indications it will not last for a very long time in my very difficult environment. Most of time I was using it as a digging bucket, sometimes with it at a 30 degree to 45 degree angle, with the front wheels raised off the ground and driving forward with the tractor jumping around a bit as it gained and lost traction and as the bucket skidded off a large rock buried deeper into the ground and then grabbed into dirt or other rocks.

 

[HillCountry]

Sdef - good to hear that things are still going mostly per plan, mud aside. On the positive side the mud probably helped make breaking the roots and rocks free a tad bit easier.

I know what you mean about the rocks. Our area was formed more from water erosion than glacial dumping, but we are still down to the hard stuff further up the hill. The picture I posted is of an area where we have a lot of smaller (relatively speaking) rocks intermixed with pretty nice topsoil. We have other areas that are essentially a rock shelf with stacked flat boulders, and a couple areas where the "ground" is one big exposed rock, where without exaggeration you can walk 20'x20' on one big single rock surface. We are going to build a detached garage on one area like that. If it were level we almost wouldn't even need a slab.

Needless to say I am not going to try to move the big rocks. If I get ambitious I may get a few loads of topsoil and just sod over one such area, but it is further from our build site and lower on the list of priorities.

How is the size of your tractor working for you? I have been bouncing between wanting the power of the Kioti DK40SE versus the smaller size and agility of a Kioti CK35 or Kubota L3800. The smaller Kubota grand Ls (L3540/60 and L3940/4060) look like they split the difference in size, but at considerable more expense. If I understand your post correctly it sounds like you are pushing the power limits of the DK45 on some of those rocks, but at the same time are facing positioning challenges with the larger tractor size. Do you think you could accomplish the same things with a smaller tractor, and if so about how much longer do you think it would take?

I am really debating the smaller tractor for purchase, and renting either a larger tractor or skid steer with tree shears or tree puller equipment for a few days to take care of things the smaller tractor just won't do. Once the bigger tasks are done, the smaller tractor should take care of everything with less soil compaction and better versatility for landscaping around the house. Plus I could trailer it with my current truck.

 

[sdef]

HillCountry: I was in your same equipment dilemma 1 year ago. I first started looking at a tractor in the LS R3039 class. While comparing, I kept hearing from dealers that a smaller tractor will do the same thing a larger one will, but it will just take more time. I came to the conclusion that may be true for some things, but not for all things. And if one is talking about doing heavy FEL or 3PH work, that adage just does not work. Plus the lighter the weight a tractor is, for the most part, the less general work it can do since its wheels will spin before a heaver tractor in the same circumstance with the same horsepower. Example: A 35 HP 3000 pound tractor will spin its tires (loose traction) before a 5000 pound tractor with 35 HP will.

So while looking around, comparing tractor web site specifics and asking on TBN, I also came to the conclusion that as far as a tractor's foot print is concerned, most CUTs are within inches of each other in length, width and turning radius. The only way you will see a significant difference is to go to the extremes of the CUT market. And if one is going to do that, one may not be in need of a CUT at all; maybe a sub-compact or a full size utility would be better for them.

The issues with my tractor would only be solved by adding a lot more weight. With loaded tires, 710# ROBB, 550# bucket and 1100 pound FEL, plus all the extras I have added, my rig weighs ~ 7500#. And this is the reason I went to a heavier framed tractor with my purchase. HP is not the problem, weight is. Also, I have R4 tires since they are a more robust design and will handle my rocky area better than R1 Ag. tires would. So I could get more traction with R1s, but may end up putting a hole in them also. A lot of my rocks are pointed, so I went with the stronger tire.

I think I only need 40 HP in a geared tractor, but went with 45 in my HST, since I also MUST have the maneuverability a HST would provide vs. a geared tractor. HSTs soak up more power than geared tractors do. Check out the PTO HP ratings and not the engine HP ratings to get a clearer picture of this.

I also need large capacity in my FEL and the Kioti KL401 loader gives this to me, along with the loader on the R4041/4047 LS tractors. No other tractor in my size and prices ranges would provide the abilities I require.

I only have 4.4 acres and will be clearing ~ 1/3 of that at the most. But a lesser tractor just would not get the job done. In the beginning, I knew my chosen current tractor class would be much more than I need when done with the majority of the home site, say 3 - 4 years from now. So I went with the performance. And after my experience last weekend, I am glad I did not go with a lighter weight machine nor implements. I may have been better off with a Land Pride hydraulic ROBB due to its much greater weight, but I split the difference between the typical lighter weight box blade commonly available and the more expensive Land Pride.

My FEL has a capacity of 2755 pounds and I would like to have more. But in this class of tractor, I am at the top of the list. The rear of the tractor gets light with a full load, so will live with "only" this capacity

Other things to consider that are not obvious are things like 3PH mounting distances between the lift arms (sub compacts) that can't use standard Cat 1 implements. And their lifting heights are less so if using a post hole digger, they can't use a regular one effectively and need a smaller one. Also, the FEL standard skid steer quick attach mounts are WONDERFUL. The smaller tractors usually do not have these as they are not designed to use the larger, heavier, "full size", CUT attachments.

So in the end, nothing smaller than a CUT would do the work I need to accomplish, even though it will be overkill in 4 years.

Manufacturer new tractor considerations (generalizations only as specifics can always be found):

- The best bang for the buck with good parts availability I found was LS (first) and Kioti.
- The other OEMs charge a lot more to have less hydraulic capability- front and rear, in general.
- The other OEMs have less standard features that LS (first) and Kioti.
- NH Boomer series are simply rebadged LS tractors with some standard LS items now optional and a non LS supplied FEL that is much weaker for a lot more money.
- Mahindra's CUTs are generally 1000# heavier, along with being more expensive. However, with experience, I may now more seriously consider these, as when I strapped on a Mahindra CUT or the Max sub-compact, they just fit me perfectly. And I could use that extra 1000# now, I think.

Like you, I also considered the tractor's weight and towing, but in the end threw it out, as my primary consideration was tractor performance and not my towing ability. I just had the tractor moved 35 miles for $175 by a towing firm that specializes in big rig towing, which is the proverbial drop in the bucket for what I have now have that is doing a very large amount of work for me- much more than a smaller tractor would.

I would not be able to get my work done with a lesser tractor. My only other option would have been to buy a sub-compact Mahinda Max 28 (really sweet machine that costs as much as some CUTs) and have a bulldozer clear the property. But that would then cause additional problems for me to deal with such as a lot soil erosion to deal with and what to do with all of the trees now stacked in a HUGE area and not having the tractor to deal with getting to all of this firewood.

I know its a tough and sometimes bewildering situation you are in. Just take a LOT of time visiting various dealers and test driving their tractors- new or used. Also ask on TBN. Like I was told several times on TBN a year ago- "Not many people complain about a tractor being too large." But you can find inferences all over TBN for tractors that are too small for the task. And again, anything smaller would not be up to my tasks.

 

[aginn]

I bought a Kubota L3200 last year with the 524 loader that also comes on the L3800. If I had it to do over again I would have also bought the Kioti. Not that the Kubota isn't a very nice tractor. It is. But the breakout force and lifting capacity of the FEL leaves much to be desired and really limits my use of the tractor without a lot of nibbling away at what I need to do with it. Kubota also has a very jittery 3PH problem that almost all L3200/L3800's share. It makes precision use of 3 point implements a minor pain.
Kioti is not available in my area without a 100 mile drive so I have what I have. It did the job I needed and was fun to use with the exceptions noted. Others have mentioned getting the HST and that is something that I totally agree with. I have owned geared tractors as well and the "joy" factor of using one equipped with HST can not be overstated. A 40 HP Kioti would probably make you a very happy camper.
Looking forward to hear what you come up with. Good luck with your pebble patch. I will be the one in the mudhole.

 

[k0ua]

I have owned geared tractors as well and the "joy" factor of using one equipped with HST can not be overstated.

Amen!

 

[sdef]

Kioti is not available in my area without a 100 mile drive so I have what I have. It did the job I needed and was fun to use with the exceptions noted. Others have mentioned getting the HST and that is something that I totally agree with. I have owned geared tractors as well and the "joy" factor of using one equipped with HST can not be overstated. A 40 HP Kioti would probably make you a very happy camper.
Looking forward to hear what you come up with. Good luck with your pebble patch. I will be the one in the mudhole.

Yep, none close to me either. My Kioti dealer is 135 miles away. There is another ~ 100 miles away but his price was ~ 8% higher. I have a LS dealer ~ 35 miles away I spent a lot of time at, but in the end his price for a R4047 was similar to the Kioti DK45 HSE. It was a very close, agonizing call for me, but I got the Kioti. I am not expecting to have to take it back to the dealer. If I did expect to have to take it back for warranty work, I should have purchased something different.

 

[IslandTractor]

Yep, none close to me either. My Kioti dealer is 135 miles away. There is another ~ 100 miles away but his price was ~ 8% higher. I have a LS dealer ~ 35 miles away I spent a lot of time at, but in the end his price for a R4047 was similar to the Kioti DK45 HSE. It was a very close, agonizing call for me, but I got the Kioti. I am not expecting to have to take it back to the dealer. If I did expect to have to take it back for warranty work, I should have purchased something different.

My Kioti dealer is 300 miles away. You need a good dealer for support but if you have a cell phone, can take directions, and can change oil, it is perfectly possible to do without a local dealer. Mine has been very supportive and helpful post sale and together we have solved a number of small problems without needing to put the tractor on a trailer. The cell phone, digital camera, Kioti maintenance manual and UPS guy have kept my tractors running for that past eight years with zero trips to the dealer.

People who want to have the dealer do all fluid changes need a dealer close by. Those who don't mind learning and crawling around under tractors can largely do without.

 

[sdef]

My Kioti dealer is 300 miles away. You need a good dealer for support but if you have a cell phone, can take directions, and can change oil, it is perfectly possible to do without a local dealer. Mine has been very supportive and helpful post sale and together we have solved a number of small problems without needing to put the tractor on a trailer. The cell phone, digital camera, Kioti maintenance manual and UPS guy have kept my tractors running for that past eight years with zero trips to the dealer.

People who want to have the dealer do all fluid changes need a dealer close by. Those who don't mind learning and crawling around under tractors can largely do without.

I agree. I have a great dealer and have had several phone calls with him, troubleshooting my third function remote. He even went directly to the remote's OEM for an answer and troubleshooting advice, which he relayed to me. In the end it was simply a faulty hydraulic coupling connection that needed to be reseated. My dealer was very supportive and was going to send me an entire valve assembly, if I wanted to change it out. It was a win for me as I learned a lot about tractor hydraulics. I am comfortable with this arrangement, but am also mechanically and electrically inclined.

 

[HillCountry]

Agin - sometimes it is as good or better to hear lessons learned as anything else. Thanks for that. The jerky 3pt was on my list to check.

Sdef - you summed up where I am at in the thought process perfectly. Sorry for the slow reply. I get busy with work and then change gears at the end of the week/weekend to focus more on the fun stuff... Like tractors. That LS3039 looks like a real nice machine.

I need to go back out to the our lot and think again about how I will use the tractor in some of the 'sensitive' areas. For example, we have a spot right by where we are building our house that is at the top of a slope, with beautiful oaks all around, overlooking a meadow with with a creek at the back. It is our favorite spot on the lot. I want to landscape in there, which means moving quite a few rocks, adding topsoil and mulch, and building up a couple of very small terrace type walls. I will have to be very careful of the trees and roots in that area because if I kill one of those beautiful oaks my wife will be VERY disappointed in me.

I have visualized the DK40SE in that area and I don't see how I can avoid running over roots. A slightly smaller tractor will still be on top of some of the roots, but with roughly 2000 less pounds. If it wasn't for this one area I would get the DK40 and be done.

Tough decision.

I think I am going to make another round at the dealers again this weekend. They are going to get tired of seeing me.

 

[IslandTractor]

Agin - sometimes it is as good or better to hear lessons learned as anything else. Thanks for that. The jerky 3pt was on my list to check.

Sdef - you summed up where I am at in the thought process perfectly. Sorry for the slow reply. I get busy with work and then change gears at the end of the week/weekend to focus more on the fun stuff... Like tractors. That LS3039 looks like a real nice machine.

I need to go back out to the our lot and think again about how I will use the tractor in some of the 'sensitive' areas. For example, we have a spot right by where we are building our house that is at the top of a slope, with beautiful oaks all around, overlooking a meadow with with a creek at the back. It is our favorite spot on the lot. I want to landscape in there, which means moving quite a few rocks, adding topsoil and mulch, and building up a couple of very small terrace type walls. I will have to be very careful of the trees and roots in that area because if I kill one of those beautiful oaks my wife will be VERY disappointed in me.

I have visualized the DK40SE in that area and I don't see how I can avoid running over roots. A slightly smaller tractor will still be on top of some of the roots, but with roughly 2000 less pounds. If it wasn't for this one area I would get the DK40 and be done.

Tough decision.

I think I am going to make another round at the dealers again this weekend. They are going to get tired of seeing me.

If running over grass doesn't kill it I don't see how a DK40 is going to hurt oak trees. We have half a dozen oaks that I drive under all the time. I do create a tread path if I don't vary the route but the trees are no worse for the wear after five or six years.