what on earth does electricity cost near you?

[3930dave]

Green is kind of subjective... depends who you ask.

We have a fair amount of hydro and nuke here, so alt NRG isn't necessarily displacing a fossil fuel.

Yes, even some senior (Mother Earth News founder) greens are looking at nuke differently today.

Personally, I'm all for excess capacity in an off-grid system, and am willing to pay for it. Understood, that not everybody is.

A properly designed grid has quite a bit of excess capacity available - otherwise you end up with brown/blackouts at Max Summer/Winter worst case loads. Summer gets you back to the long distance transmission thing...... if an HV line (actually, any line) is dealing with a 40C ambient, well, that just derates how much current it can carry. A lot of traditional generation sources driving the grid can only throttle Up/Down so much, so at less than peak loads, a surprising amount of power gets thrown away - kind of like keeping the car running in the driveway, just in case you want to go somewhere.

To keep my usual rambling short(er ), let's just call me middle-of-the-road green. I wouldn't have a problem offsetting battery bank size initially by having a backup generator in place. Folks have had good economical performance from a small air-cooled Honda engine belt driving an alternator as a dedicated 12v generator.

While some might not deem my approach Green, if it moves my overall project ahead, I'll manage to sleep at night :thumbsup:

Rgds, D.

 

[creekbend]

The cost of provding electricity is going to increase, due to the EPA standards and the closing of many coal burning power plants.

 

[N7943h]

I did not take the time to read all the previous posts but thought I would chime in with my costs. $.22 kWh. However, the power company is requesting an 18% increase. Not 5%, not 10% but 18% over our present price. We are on about 90% hydro. Go figure.

 

[3930dave]

I did not take the time to read all the previous posts but thought I would chime in with my costs. $.22 kWh. However, the power company is requesting an 18% increase. Not 5%, not 10% but 18% over our present price. We are on about 90% hydro. Go figure.

Ouch !

That sounds like "Start at 18, so the regulators can claim victory holding it to 14%".

Thanks for returning to the Title topic :thumbsup: Those prices must have more people looking at other options.

Rgds, D.

 

[3930dave]

The cost of provding electricity is going to increase, due to the EPA standards and the closing of many coal burning power plants.

The Germans developed clean burning coal technology quite some time ago. Other than NIH, I've never understood why it's never been implemented this side of the pond. Not saying that move is free/cheap. With fossil fuels, I'd prefer to see Natgas used, but many countries do not have the abundance that Can/USA does.

Other than hydro (with stable water sources, not always a safe bet today), I like to see a variety of power sources used.

Germany has been going back to coal, as a backlash against nuclear.

Burning coal in Germany - The Washington Post

A bit strange, as this has been driven by the German Greens. Haven't gone looking, but I'd expect the German nuclear safety program was/is good.

Rgds, D.

 

[dmccarty]

Green-ness.... well, that depends on who you ask, and what your metrics are

....

I think most people have 2 problems with batteries, that come ahead of any green issues.

1) They cost money.

2) They have to be safely stored, and maintained. Costs money/time again.

Rgds, D.

3) Batteries wear out and have to be replaced which is an added and never ending expense. And a big expense.

Many greenies do not like hydro and do not consider dams green. Looks like the people in CA are going to wish they had built more dams to store water runoff...

If the US is going to have a shortage of water for drinking and food production, then the idea of using water to generate power is going to be problematic. Dams take people land an lively hood. There is a big dam in the NC mountains that displaced many people who were really screwed out of their land and they and their survivors are still ticked off today. There is large water storage/flood control lake in my county that flooded out some nice farms. The family's still talk about the loss of their farms but I think in their case they were paid fairly for the land. The Raleigh, Durham, Cary, and Chapel Hill metropolis has water supplied by two very large lakes and some very small ones. The cities have been fighting over water allocation for years and while there is still some allocation remaining, at the rate the area is growing, a new lake will have to be built at some point. These lakes do not have enough head to generate power so they just hold water. The lakes have to "loose" water to supply two major rivers and thus water supplies for people downstream. If the lakes were being used to supply a major portion of the areas power there would be a real problem when we have had droughts. Do you want to drink or do you want the lights on?

Later,
Dan

 

[caver]

The cost of provding electricity is going to increase, due to the EPA standards and the closing of many coal burning power plants.

+1 ......and I work at a coal power plant
...and my local rate is .038 (city owned power plant)

 

[3930dave]

Many people don't react well to being expropriated. It's a general problem, not just with hydro-electric projects. Can't say I blame them.

Hydro project designs have evolved somewhat, but that aside, I don't know of any technical reasons that dictate you can't source drinking water downstream from a hydro plant. You're only spinning a giant pinwheel with kinetic water energy, the water is not consumed or contaminated.

I get a kick out of rabid greenies sometimes. I wonder how many have a smartphone/tablet that they are constantly recharging - and how many of them are cleanly generating their own power to do it ?

Some rainy day, I'll dig up global smartphone data and calculate how much power gets chewed up 24x365 each year.

Most people, including greenies, aren't willing to wear a hair shirt, and live in a cave. We all like our ModCons.

Rgds, D.

 

[Turbys_1700]

I think that our average cost is in the .09 to .10 per kilowatt hour...
My 1450sq. ft. home was built in 1953...
15 years ago we purchased a heat pump and insulated the floors, walls, and ceiling through a program with Duke Energy...
My utilities last year ran $2200 which equals around $185 per month...
Before my heat pump I was purchasing 700 gallons of fuel oil per year for heat so my savings have been substantial...

 

[jejeosborne]

A properly designed grid has quite a bit of excess capacity available - otherwise you end up with brown/blackouts at Max Summer/Winter worst case loads. Summer gets you back to the long distance transmission thing...... if an HV line (actually, any line) is dealing with a 40C ambient, well, that just derates how much current it can carry. A lot of traditional generation sources driving the grid can only throttle Up/Down so much, so at less than peak loads, a surprising amount of power gets thrown away - kind of like keeping the car running in the driveway, just in case you want to go somewhere.

Rgds, D.

You are correct in stating that excess capacity has to be available at all times but your example is slightly flawed. NERC requires that operating and contingency reserves are kept for reliability on the system. Fortunately reserve sharing groups allow for utilities to make a group effort to meet this requirement. Having many units in the mix allow for more base load units and fewer regulating units. No power is thrown away but instead some power is generated less efficiently because of the poor heat rates of units not at full capacity. No units are idling that are connected to the grid.

If you look at load curves in most developed countries, there is a large discrepancy between on peak and off peak periods. Humans don't want to work 2nd or 3rd shifts and they all enjoy that AC on 105 degree days. Infastructure and capacity have to be available for these periods that just last a few hours a year. This is why I and many others are advocates for time of use rates that will flatten load curves because many will choose to operate their factories and do tasks like running the dishwasher or dryer at night when loads are light and prices are cheap.

These large generators must be on during the low load periods because shutting them down for short periods is not possible. Big plants take about 8 hours and a lot of fuel just to get the boiler up to temperature.

Prices in the Midwest were over 10 times what they normally would be yesterday due to the cold weather yet the average consumer doesn't have that knowledge to think that maybe today isn't the best day to do 5 loads of laundry.