Briefly running engine in garage

[OutbackL130]

Originally Posted by OutbackL130

What about co from a portable 36,000 btu propane heater used in the garage? Its an uninsulated metal building and where the corrugated metal overlays the outer perimeter both on the roof trusses and siding there are significant gaps for air leaks. Does this provide enough ventilation? If I were to add up all the square inches of gaps it would exceed the manufacturers requirements. I just know its more common to crack a window or door but the effort seems like a waste of heat if I already have sufficient ventilation.

Really, has nothing gotten through to you in three pages and 25 posts? There are NO safe CO levels inside buildings, cars, trucks, planes. Period. CO does not discriminate, and there are NO safe levels to work in an indoor environment. Case closed- move on.

CM out

Your response does not relate to my question about propane heaters. The heater manufacture recommends 1 square inch opening per 1,000 btu. If all the leaks in my building add up to 36 square inches then it would be safe according to them!?

 

[Coyote machine]

Do propane open flame heaters generate CO? Maybe a bit, but I don't think an open flame propane heater is a deadly CO generator, if they were, millions of folks who grew up using an open flame (grate style) home heater wouldn't have grown up. That and a propane stove is the only heat source that we had in our house growing up and we all made it thru alive and undamaged.

I think we were talking internal combustion engines that don't completely burn the fuel and put out a lot of CO. There must be something different between a central heating unit with a heat exchanger that generate a lot of CO and a propane/butane stove or open flame or catalytic heater otherwise lots of folks who use them would be dead. I have heard of folks using small heaters in campers being overcome with CO and perhaps that is because of the small space and air tight surfaces that didn't allow for fresh air intake so the flame started to burn without enough oxygen and produced CO rather than CO2.
Why furnaces generate CO and open flames from stoves and grate style heaters don't create a problem, I cant answer.

I'll try to answer your question. Any device that burns a carbon based fuel, kerosene, propane, oil,gasoline, etc. will and does produce CO. How the amount of CO produced is handled by an appliance, stove, burner, etc. is what can make a difference as to level of safety for the end user. Your open flame home heaters were vented to outside the living area. Open flame torpedo type heaters are not vented. Built in camper heaters are vented outside. Portable use propane open flame heaters and kerosene heaters are NOT vented and therein lies the problem and resulting high death rate for those who use them without knowing the risks they pose, in an enclosed, essentially air tight camper.

Below is a link that covers the risks and explains some of the CO producing potential of these types of heaters. And it includes a very good description of the effects of CO on the bloodstream. (It is not the only source, so look up others on Google or elsewhere.)

BTW, Thanks Tom for your real life, near death, description of what I've been, as have others here, trying to get across to all who read this thread; CO is deadly and fooling with it on any level or amount can KILL you. It is not worth the risk!

http://diy.vooxo.net/your-portable-propane-heater-is-trying-to-kill-you/

 

[Dr_Zinj]

As a retired automotive/equipment repair manager, I'd say you're probably okay.

CO2 and CO are both dangerous gasses; and both can kill. But they kill differently from each other.

CO is toxic and will cause increasing brain damage as the concentration increases, death if it gets too high. I recall being on guard duty with the Air Force with 2 other security police in an old rusted out truck in mid-winter and if the shift supervisor hadn't stopped by, we'd all be dead. As it was, we had brilliant red faces, excruciating head aches, and were generally sicker than dogs. CO binds to oxygen receptors, blocking your hemoglobin from picking up the oxygen or carrying out the CO2.

CO2 build up is dangerous in that it displaces oxygen by volume. Normally, oxygen makes up about 21% of the normal air you breath, and 14 to 16% of what you exhale. If you're breathing 14 to 16%, your brain is only firing on 2/3rds of its cylinders. At 10% you stop being able to think, and most people pass out. At 8% you'll be dead in 8 minutes. What's nasty about CO2 is it's heavier than air, so it builds up in holes in the ground and low spots. Which is why guys who go down into manholes, or into tank truck tanks need ventilators, or breathing tanks. It's also why you absolutely need good ventilation in the bottom of silos, or maintenance pits.

That 10K cu ft per min fan works good for the over all shop; but automotive maintenance shops are also required to use exhaust hoses with blowers for each vehicle as pulling the air out of the general shop isn't sufficient. Total shop exhaust is fine for cleaning it up when pulling a truck or tractor in or out of the building, but if you're running it in the maintenance stall, it had better have that hose properly placed over the exhaust, and the fan for the hose better be running.

 

[GolfAddict]

CM, if you have a definite opinion on this, quit beating around the bush. Please just come out and say it already!

 

[ericher69]

I'll try to answer your question. Any device that burns a carbon based fuel, kerosene, propane, oil,gasoline, etc. will and does produce CO. How the amount of CO produced is handled by an appliance, stove, burner, etc. is what can make a difference as to level of safety for the end user. Your open flame home heaters were vented to outside the living area. Open flame torpedo type heaters are not vented. Built in camper heaters are vented outside. Portable use propane open flame heaters and kerosene heaters are NOT vented and therein lies the problem and resulting high death rate for those who use them without knowing the risks they pose, in an enclosed, essentially air tight camper. Below is a link that covers the risks and explains some of the CO producing potential of these types of heaters. And it includes a very good description of the effects of CO on the bloodstream. (It is not the only source, so look up others on Google or elsewhere.) BTW, Thanks Tom for your real life, near death, description of what I've been, as have others here, trying to get across to all who read this thread; CO is deadly and fooling with it on any level or amount can KILL you. It is not worth the risk! http://diy.vooxo.net/your-portable-propane-heater-is-trying-to-kill-you/

Increased CO levels are not always directly related to decreased O2 levels

http://www2.worksafebc.com/i/posters/pdfs/2006/ws0603.pdf

 

[OutbackL130]

I'm glad we started talking about propane heaters, this topic just might save someone's life one day. So how safe are wall mounted ventless propane heaters in the home?

Every house I've lived in has had a ventless wall heater and now I'm starting to wonder if that's a bad idea. Question about ventless propane wall heaters - Homesteading Today


Do portable and wall mounted ventless propane heaters produce the same amount of co?

 

[buickanddeere]

The caveat is "clean burning" LP or NG. The "average" large house has enough air leakage to handle a "small" unvented heater. Maladjusted , damaged or dirty heater and all bets are off.
Want to know about a source of CO. Just about any batch fired coal furnace that isn't stoked with red hot coals pulled back on top of the fresh charge of coal. With lots of draft and fresh air.above the coal bed.

 

[OutbackL130]

How can you tell if a co alarm is working? I bought one from lowes today and it has the digital readout as well. I know you can push the button but that only tests the battery. I held the detector near my truck tail pipe and it read 33 ppm but did not sound the alarm. Discouraged I grabbed a lawn chair to set the detector on near the exhaust as I stood away. After about 20 seconds I came back to check the reading which had maxed out the meter at over 999 ppm but the alarm never went off.

 

[Coyote machine]

CM, if you have a definite opinion on this, quit beating around the bush. Please just come out and say it already!

Sorry, I thought I had! Well, since you asked, the OP is unable to comprehend what we've been telling him, so I give up. Mission failure....

 

[OutbackL130]

I am now afraid of mowing with my John Deere as a result of this thread. To be honest I'm scared to drive tractors anymore. Coyote Machine claims that ANY amount of CO exposure is harmful. I don't think he realizes that every time we operate our tractors outdoors we are exposed to significant levels of CO from the tailpipe mounted in front of the operator.

I recently purchased another CO meter which is a high end Pyle meter used by OSHA for compliance testing. I tested my 2004 John Deere L130 riding mower while operating it outdoors in the same manner as anyone in the world would do while cutting grass. I held the meter at face level while driving the mower. The meter registered continuous CO levels of 35 - 50 ppm and frequently spiked over 150 ppm. The only time CO levels dropped to OSHA permissible levels was when there was a negative headwind.

I also tested my 1984 John Deere 420 Garden Tractor. Holding the meter at face level while operating the tractor outdoors, continuous CO levels were about 50 ppm and spiked to over 300 ppm in headwind.

I'm hoping someone with more factual information will explain the threshold of carbon monoxide exposure to operators of riding mowers and tractors in the OUTDOORS. Most lawn tractors have the exhaust outlet in front of the cowl exposing the operators to a continuous plume of CO. Do I need to be afraid of those levels of CO while operating my mower and tractor outdoors? I am very concerned of the CO levels from the JD 420. So much that I am considering selling it to buy a zero turn mower where the exhaust exits from behind.

This chart shows that CO exposure at just 100 ppm for 1 hour will cause brain damage. My john deere's exceed 100 ppm frequently according to my CO meter.