Briefly running engine in garage

[buickanddeere]

Outback. Excellent article. Thanks for posting.

 

[Coyote machine]

I appreciate the replies so far. Primarily I was prompted to discuss this topic after being shocked by these research results from the cdc displaying just how quickly co builds up in an area even with "adequate" ventilation such as open garage doors.


CDC - NIOSH Publications and Products - Preventing Carbon Monoxide Poisoning from Small Gasoline-Powered Engines and Tools (96-118)
5hp engine operating in a roughly 12' x 24' building with 8' walls. NOTE: doors were open, cooling fan and ventilation running.

Sure, its common sense to not idle an engine inside a closed garage but that report is talking about having the doors open! To me the results seem extreme given how common garages are and the millions of people who use them everyday. I guess it goes to show how co is not something to mess around with and indeed blurs the line between common sense and an easily avoidable tragic accident.

I totally agree there is caution and overkill. Obviously people aren't going to start pushing their vehicles in and out of their garages. I was curious to learn what precautionary practical measures professional mechanics take when working on a vehicle. My buddy is an ASE Cert mechanic and next time I talk to him I'm going to ask about the precautions they are trained to take. When they have a vehicle up on a car lift and have to listen to the engine, I can guarantee they don't lower it down and drive it outside to let it idle.

Like I said before I'm just surprised how easily exposed people can be to high levels of co without even realizing it. It would be possible to infer from the CDC research that "common sense" is not enough when it comes to staying safe in these situations.



_________________________________________________________________

CDC - Carbon Monoxide Poisoning - Frequently Asked Questions

Contradicting info on the CDC if someone would explain further...

I'll try to further explain what I believe they were trying to convey. Don't run a car/truck/ CO producing equipment in an enclosed garage or building. If necessary to run the engine long enough to remove it from the garage open the garage doors first and remove the vehicle quickly, then allow all contaminated air to be replaced with fresh air by removing the source of CO from the area, and continue to allow fresh air into the garage/space until all contaminated air is replaced by grade A fresh air containing no CO.

Seems like a case of poor quality proofreading. If something seems contradictory, try to access what the meaning is by applying common sense to the problem and acting accordingly. :2cents:

 

[dragoneggs]

All good stuff on the deadliness of CO... and I know I shouldn't go here but I have to confess the breathing of CO2, at work in my high school days working at a pizza joint was kinda fun. We used to have to go back in the walkin fridge and punch down the large dough bins. If you massaged and punched them right you could develop a bubble that you would gently rip and inhale. A harmless 'high'? I think it was CO2??? :cool2: I don't know but fond if not stupid memory from the 70's. Jeez... this is the second post tonight I should apologize for.

I promise I will now revert back to more intelligent posts.

 

[ericher69]

There is no truth to the rumors of false alarms from ordinary household products. If your detector goes off, it means there is very likely CO present and the correct course of action is to evacuate the building and call the Fire Department.

Matt,

Gotta disagree with you on this 100%.

Depending on the type of CO detector

Opto chemical
Biometric
Electrochemical
Semiconductor

Biometric is the only type certified "false alarm" free and are typically expensive and used in hospitals.

Fabric softner sheets, Disinfectant spray, mothballs etc etc can and WILL cause some types of cheaper CO alarms to go off.

I've been on many many calls where the home CO monitor was alarming and there was no CO in the building- verified on 2 meters costing thousands of dollars that are bump tested daily; process where a known amount/concentration of gas is run through the meter to ensure proper operation and alarm limits.

Any way they are a good idea and yes NO amount of CO inhaled is a good amount.

 

[OutbackL130]

What about co from a portable 36,000 btu propane heater used in the garage? Its an uninsulated metal building and where the corrugated metal overlays the outer perimeter both on the roof trusses and siding there are significant gaps for air leaks. Does this provide enough ventilation? If I were to add up all the square inches of gaps it would exceed the manufacturers requirements. I just know its more common to crack a window or door but the effort seems like a waste of heat if I already have sufficient ventilation.

 

[Coyote machine]

What about co from a portable 36,000 btu propane heater used in the garage? Its an uninsulated metal building and where the corrugated metal overlays the outer perimeter both on the roof trusses and siding there are significant gaps for air leaks. Does this provide enough ventilation? If I were to add up all the square inches of gaps it would exceed the manufacturers requirements. I just know its more common to crack a window or door but the effort seems like a waste of heat if I already have sufficient ventilation.

Really, has nothing gotten through to you in three pages and 25 posts? There are NO safe CO levels inside buildings, cars, trucks, planes. Period. CO does not discriminate, and there are NO safe levels to work in an indoor environment. Case closed- move on.

CM out

 

[TomSeller]

Last winter my wife and I returned home from vacation after having turned the thermostat down while we were gone. We got home about 11 PM and turned the thermostat up, unpacked and went bed. About 3 AM we woke thinking a smoke detector was going off. I got up and checked the smoke detectors, all were normal. I then recalled that I had bought and plugged into a duplex outlet a CO sensor. As it turned out, the CO sensor was in alarm. I unplugged it from the wall and at 3 AM was picking at the battery door to shut it up. Common sense overrode my drowsiness and I stepped outside with the sensor. It went back to normal. I went back into the house with it and it went into alarm. I did this a few times before I called to my wife to get out of the house. She of course thought it was better to roll over and go back to sleep. I eventually got her up and got her along with the dogs to stagger outside (seriously). I held my breath and ran downstairs to the gas furnace to shut it off and flip on the basement exhaust fan. I recall the CO sensor still in my hand was reading lethal levels of CO at the time. As it turned out my heat exchanger had failed and was pumping CO into the house.

Coyote is correct, there is no safe level of CO. I know someone who was overcome by CO and only is alive today because when he passed out he fell against a partially closed exterior door and landed with his head outside. He says he had no idea he was being overcome by the CO until he woke up. CO is not something to fool with.

By the way, I had the furnace replaced and now have THREE CO sensors in the house.

 

[sixdogs]

Really, has nothing gotten through to you in three pages and 25 posts? There are NO safe CO levels inside buildings, cars, trucks, planes. Period. CO does not discriminate, and there are NO safe levels to work in an indoor environment. Case closed- move on.

CM out

It is so dangerous it even fools the pros. That's why you occasionally read of someone who knows better--like a fireman or police chief or doctor--coming out of their house DOA after running a generator in their garage or right outside the door or whatever. Because it's colorless, odorless and tasteless the normal warning signs that protected us through life won't work any more and we are fooled into neglect.

 

[Gary Fowler]

What about co from a portable 36,000 btu propane heater used in the garage? Its an uninsulated metal building and where the corrugated metal overlays the outer perimeter both on the roof trusses and siding there are significant gaps for air leaks. Does this provide enough ventilation? If I were to add up all the square inches of gaps it would exceed the manufacturers requirements. I just know its more common to crack a window or door but the effort seems like a waste of heat if I already have sufficient ventilation.

Do propane open flame heaters generate CO? Maybe a bit, but I don't think an open flame propane heater is a deadly CO generator, if they were, millions of folks who grew up using an open flame (grate style) home heater wouldn't have grown up. That and a propane stove is the only heat source that we had in our house growing up and we all made it thru alive and undamaged.

I think we were talking internal combustion engines that don't completely burn the fuel and put out a lot of CO. There must be something different between a central heating unit with a heat exchanger that generate a lot of CO and a propane/butane stove or open flame or catalytic heater otherwise lots of folks who use them would be dead. I have heard of folks using small heaters in campers being overcome with CO and perhaps that is because of the small space and air tight surfaces that didn't allow for fresh air intake so the flame started to burn without enough oxygen and produced CO rather than CO2.
Why furnaces generate CO and open flames from stoves and grate style heaters don't create a problem, I cant answer.

 

[OutbackL130]

From my research if you can believe anything on the internet it appears that propane heaters do not produce co unless incomplete combustion occurs due to a problem, malfunction with the heater or low oxygen levels in the room.

 

[OutbackL130]

Originally Posted by OutbackL130

What about co from a portable 36,000 btu propane heater used in the garage? Its an uninsulated metal building and where the corrugated metal overlays the outer perimeter both on the roof trusses and siding there are significant gaps for air leaks. Does this provide enough ventilation? If I were to add up all the square inches of gaps it would exceed the manufacturers requirements. I just know its more common to crack a window or door but the effort seems like a waste of heat if I already have sufficient ventilation.

Really, has nothing gotten through to you in three pages and 25 posts? There are NO safe CO levels inside buildings, cars, trucks, planes. Period. CO does not discriminate, and there are NO safe levels to work in an indoor environment. Case closed- move on.

CM out

Your response does not relate to my question about propane heaters. The heater manufacture recommends 1 square inch opening per 1,000 btu. If all the leaks in my building add up to 36 square inches then it would be safe according to them!?

 

[Coyote machine]

Do propane open flame heaters generate CO? Maybe a bit, but I don't think an open flame propane heater is a deadly CO generator, if they were, millions of folks who grew up using an open flame (grate style) home heater wouldn't have grown up. That and a propane stove is the only heat source that we had in our house growing up and we all made it thru alive and undamaged.

I think we were talking internal combustion engines that don't completely burn the fuel and put out a lot of CO. There must be something different between a central heating unit with a heat exchanger that generate a lot of CO and a propane/butane stove or open flame or catalytic heater otherwise lots of folks who use them would be dead. I have heard of folks using small heaters in campers being overcome with CO and perhaps that is because of the small space and air tight surfaces that didn't allow for fresh air intake so the flame started to burn without enough oxygen and produced CO rather than CO2.
Why furnaces generate CO and open flames from stoves and grate style heaters don't create a problem, I cant answer.

I'll try to answer your question. Any device that burns a carbon based fuel, kerosene, propane, oil,gasoline, etc. will and does produce CO. How the amount of CO produced is handled by an appliance, stove, burner, etc. is what can make a difference as to level of safety for the end user. Your open flame home heaters were vented to outside the living area. Open flame torpedo type heaters are not vented. Built in camper heaters are vented outside. Portable use propane open flame heaters and kerosene heaters are NOT vented and therein lies the problem and resulting high death rate for those who use them without knowing the risks they pose, in an enclosed, essentially air tight camper.

Below is a link that covers the risks and explains some of the CO producing potential of these types of heaters. And it includes a very good description of the effects of CO on the bloodstream. (It is not the only source, so look up others on Google or elsewhere.)

BTW, Thanks Tom for your real life, near death, description of what I've been, as have others here, trying to get across to all who read this thread; CO is deadly and fooling with it on any level or amount can KILL you. It is not worth the risk!

http://diy.vooxo.net/your-portable-propane-heater-is-trying-to-kill-you/

 

[Dr_Zinj]

As a retired automotive/equipment repair manager, I'd say you're probably okay.

CO2 and CO are both dangerous gasses; and both can kill. But they kill differently from each other.

CO is toxic and will cause increasing brain damage as the concentration increases, death if it gets too high. I recall being on guard duty with the Air Force with 2 other security police in an old rusted out truck in mid-winter and if the shift supervisor hadn't stopped by, we'd all be dead. As it was, we had brilliant red faces, excruciating head aches, and were generally sicker than dogs. CO binds to oxygen receptors, blocking your hemoglobin from picking up the oxygen or carrying out the CO2.

CO2 build up is dangerous in that it displaces oxygen by volume. Normally, oxygen makes up about 21% of the normal air you breath, and 14 to 16% of what you exhale. If you're breathing 14 to 16%, your brain is only firing on 2/3rds of its cylinders. At 10% you stop being able to think, and most people pass out. At 8% you'll be dead in 8 minutes. What's nasty about CO2 is it's heavier than air, so it builds up in holes in the ground and low spots. Which is why guys who go down into manholes, or into tank truck tanks need ventilators, or breathing tanks. It's also why you absolutely need good ventilation in the bottom of silos, or maintenance pits.

That 10K cu ft per min fan works good for the over all shop; but automotive maintenance shops are also required to use exhaust hoses with blowers for each vehicle as pulling the air out of the general shop isn't sufficient. Total shop exhaust is fine for cleaning it up when pulling a truck or tractor in or out of the building, but if you're running it in the maintenance stall, it had better have that hose properly placed over the exhaust, and the fan for the hose better be running.

 

[GolfAddict]

CM, if you have a definite opinion on this, quit beating around the bush. Please just come out and say it already!

 

[ericher69]

I'll try to answer your question. Any device that burns a carbon based fuel, kerosene, propane, oil,gasoline, etc. will and does produce CO. How the amount of CO produced is handled by an appliance, stove, burner, etc. is what can make a difference as to level of safety for the end user. Your open flame home heaters were vented to outside the living area. Open flame torpedo type heaters are not vented. Built in camper heaters are vented outside. Portable use propane open flame heaters and kerosene heaters are NOT vented and therein lies the problem and resulting high death rate for those who use them without knowing the risks they pose, in an enclosed, essentially air tight camper. Below is a link that covers the risks and explains some of the CO producing potential of these types of heaters. And it includes a very good description of the effects of CO on the bloodstream. (It is not the only source, so look up others on Google or elsewhere.) BTW, Thanks Tom for your real life, near death, description of what I've been, as have others here, trying to get across to all who read this thread; CO is deadly and fooling with it on any level or amount can KILL you. It is not worth the risk! http://diy.vooxo.net/your-portable-propane-heater-is-trying-to-kill-you/

Increased CO levels are not always directly related to decreased O2 levels

http://www2.worksafebc.com/i/posters/pdfs/2006/ws0603.pdf

 

[OutbackL130]

I'm glad we started talking about propane heaters, this topic just might save someone's life one day. So how safe are wall mounted ventless propane heaters in the home?

Every house I've lived in has had a ventless wall heater and now I'm starting to wonder if that's a bad idea. Question about ventless propane wall heaters - Homesteading Today


Do portable and wall mounted ventless propane heaters produce the same amount of co?

 

[buickanddeere]

The caveat is "clean burning" LP or NG. The "average" large house has enough air leakage to handle a "small" unvented heater. Maladjusted , damaged or dirty heater and all bets are off.
Want to know about a source of CO. Just about any batch fired coal furnace that isn't stoked with red hot coals pulled back on top of the fresh charge of coal. With lots of draft and fresh air.above the coal bed.

 

[OutbackL130]

How can you tell if a co alarm is working? I bought one from lowes today and it has the digital readout as well. I know you can push the button but that only tests the battery. I held the detector near my truck tail pipe and it read 33 ppm but did not sound the alarm. Discouraged I grabbed a lawn chair to set the detector on near the exhaust as I stood away. After about 20 seconds I came back to check the reading which had maxed out the meter at over 999 ppm but the alarm never went off.

 

[Coyote machine]

CM, if you have a definite opinion on this, quit beating around the bush. Please just come out and say it already!

Sorry, I thought I had! Well, since you asked, the OP is unable to comprehend what we've been telling him, so I give up. Mission failure....

 

[OutbackL130]

I am now afraid of mowing with my John Deere as a result of this thread. To be honest I'm scared to drive tractors anymore. Coyote Machine claims that ANY amount of CO exposure is harmful. I don't think he realizes that every time we operate our tractors outdoors we are exposed to significant levels of CO from the tailpipe mounted in front of the operator.

I recently purchased another CO meter which is a high end Pyle meter used by OSHA for compliance testing. I tested my 2004 John Deere L130 riding mower while operating it outdoors in the same manner as anyone in the world would do while cutting grass. I held the meter at face level while driving the mower. The meter registered continuous CO levels of 35 - 50 ppm and frequently spiked over 150 ppm. The only time CO levels dropped to OSHA permissible levels was when there was a negative headwind.

I also tested my 1984 John Deere 420 Garden Tractor. Holding the meter at face level while operating the tractor outdoors, continuous CO levels were about 50 ppm and spiked to over 300 ppm in headwind.

I'm hoping someone with more factual information will explain the threshold of carbon monoxide exposure to operators of riding mowers and tractors in the OUTDOORS. Most lawn tractors have the exhaust outlet in front of the cowl exposing the operators to a continuous plume of CO. Do I need to be afraid of those levels of CO while operating my mower and tractor outdoors? I am very concerned of the CO levels from the JD 420. So much that I am considering selling it to buy a zero turn mower where the exhaust exits from behind.

This chart shows that CO exposure at just 100 ppm for 1 hour will cause brain damage. My john deere's exceed 100 ppm frequently according to my CO meter.