I agree it is sad that those who want wolves for the most part do not live where they want the wolves to populate, the time of a natural ecological system is gone. Wolves will not starve when they kill off most of the natural game they will turn to domestic livestock, pets and perhaps people. The best thing with wolves is let them remain only in memories and history books.
Minnesota Moose problems
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The number of animals being killed by predators is accounted for in the study. The concern is the number of adult animals dieing from stress and disease.
dave1949
Super Star Member
Where is there evidence that wolves will kill off most of the natural prey?
There used to be wolves in Maine, and in most of the northern areas from here to the Rocky Mtns. Your idea would have it that those wolves ate everything. That is simply not true. Moose and wolves co-existed quite well and for thousands of years in the past. The most recent 150 years or so, when wolves have been extirpated by humans in most of that area, is the aberration.
There are certainly a lot of pressures working against having a natural ecological system, but I don't think we should accept converting the world into the equivalent of a very sad zoo, nor do I think we have to.
OP
farmer2009
Elite Member
Every animal needs a predator. Or else you get over-population, diseases and starvation. But I just don't think that man's idea of the perfect ecosystem is always correct. I think man tries to look at things and get close but nature always wins this battle.
teejk
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Our initial goal was to maintain 350 animals. Due to lawsuits it was allowed to reach 800 (although most people think that is a joke and I've seen some reports that it might be 1,100 or more). I think you "Sota crackers" have a much bigger problem than we do.
dave1949
Super Star Member
I will repeat the question:
Where is there evidence that wolves [or bears] will kill off most of the natural prey?
The moose numbers are being managed to optimize the moose take from hunting. That is not a function of nature. It is managing wildlife as a human asset.
1) Populations of most wildlife are cyclical--even when the desire to hunt them is not.
2) If the moose were on a natural rising population cycle that was curtailed by raised hunting take allowed, then when on a low portion of the cycle, there are many fewer than there would have been without that hunting intervention.
3) What were the bears and wolves eating before they began eating moose calves? What is the status of that prey population?
4) If there are more bears and/or wolves, there is a reason for that. What is it? Natural cycle? Side effects of other factors?
The study is great as far as it goes, but it seems to ignore most other factors and promote taking a shortcut to boosting moose numbers for hunting. How is that much different than converting Alaska to a hunting safari destination?
What is absolutely wrong with this is: people are judging the health or status of wildlife populations based on whether or not they can successfully harvest a handful of game animal species. It is a market-driven commercialization of wildlife. Continuing in that manner will bring us exactly to where Western European countries are today; hunting is very limited and strictly for the wealthy. We are already halfway there.
teejk
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In simple terms, I think the settlers saw the wolves as a threat to their families and livestock and shot on sight (wasn't long ago that they had a bounty on them). In the meantime our game animals have increased their numbers to well beyond what ever existed in history and entire industries have been built around deer/moose/elk/turkey/waterfowl/upland game hunting. Like the idea or not, keeping a sustainable populations of things to hunt is not unlike keeping the tobacco industry alive or maintaining our ever increasing welfare programs. Beneficiaries of the $$$ at all levels get "hooked" on the $$$ and don't want to give any of it back. Now back to the wolves, estimates around here are that they each will kill 16 deer per year (guess they haven't bothered to read about the best parts to eat because they chew on the hind quarters and leave the choice cuts to the crows/ravens). I have seen a few around here but most people will never see one unless they get out of bed early.
