Electrical Wiring Question

[aczlan]

The reality is this will never be a problem to anyone.

Unless the GFCI fails.

Aaron Z

 

[GregbkH]

First you said this which is wrong



That circuit has a neutral and a ground going to the outlet and all the way back to the panel. I can see your point if the thought is if you cut the wire you would hit the ground or neutral too and because they aren't right next to this hot it would be a problem. But its on a ground fault breaker and that protects even old circuits which only had a neutral and a hot and no ground wire at all. So it definitely protects this circuit which has a proper neutral and ground.



You're entitled to your opinion but that's all it is is an opinion and credentials don't carry any weight with me because common sense will win every time.

First, the person would have to hit the wire with something conductive -- and most tools used in dirt either have wooden or fiberglass handles. Second, they would have to be grounded and most people don't walk on rocks in bare feet nor do they kneel on rocks in shorts and rocks aren't conductive unless in a pool of water which doesn't happen on sand on high ground. Third, the ground fault would detect an imbalance in the circuit and would trip in about one thirtieth of a second and would protect the individual. Fourth, the wire is up against a block wall and even digging with a shovel it would be tough to hit it because the block isn't flat making it tough to dig tight against the block.

So you can argue the minutia but the reality is the wire is fine where it is. Not my preferred way of doing it but its fine.

The reality is this will never be a problem to anyone. Now if you can refute the above with some facts I'll consider them but so far you haven't said anything that would concern me.

First, your first quote is not mine, but he is right and you are wrong.

Without running the hot with the neutral and ground in the same raceway, the hot, if broken will leak current into the ground as it searches for home.

Second, credentials mean something to everyone else but you. It means that the person that has them knows what they are talking about. Most states are now requiring credentials in order to perform any electrical work.

Again, what you have done is not only terribly wrong and potentially dangerous, it violates EVERY code. NEC, state and local codes. No one would pass that installation. You have quite possibly broken the law and yet you post about it and argue about it on the internet.

Now I know what I'm dealing with. Wow.

 

[MNBobcat]

First, your first quote is not mine, but he is right and you are wrong.

Without running the hot with the neutral and ground in the same raceway, the hot, if broken will leak current into the ground as it searches for home.

Second, credentials mean something to everyone else but you. It means that the person that has them knows what they are talking about. Most states are now requiring credentials in order to perform any electrical work.

Again, what you have done is not only terribly wrong and potentially dangerous, it violates EVERY code. NEC, state and local codes. No one would pass that installation. You have quite possibly broken the law and yet you post about it and argue about it on the internet.

Now I know what I'm dealing with. Wow.

And when it leaks current into the ground and the ground fault breaker detects the imbalance in the circuit what is going to happen?

 

[grsthegreat]

First, your first quote is not mine, but he is right and you are wrong.

Without running the hot with the neutral and ground in the same raceway, the hot, if broken will leak current into the ground as it searches for home.

Second, credentials mean something to everyone else but you. It means that the person that has them knows what they are talking about. Most states are now requiring credentials in order to perform any electrical work.

Again, what you have done is not only terribly wrong and potentially dangerous, it violates EVERY code. NEC, state and local codes. No one would pass that installation. You have quite possibly broken the law and yet you post about it and argue about it on the internet.

Now I know what I'm dealing with. Wow.

man, i agree with you 100%. This guy basically knows nothing about electricity and is arguing with the experts in this field. after his last statement im thru arguing with him. this will be my last post on this particular thread.

what he has done is dangerous, but if he wants to put his head in the sand, its his business. not mine. Why someone asks for help to solve a problem, then argues with the person telling him how to fix the problem, is beyond me.

i wish i hadnt wasted my time

 

[MNBobcat]

man, i agree with you 100%. This guy basically knows nothing about electricity and is arguing with the experts in this field. after his last statement im thru arguing with him. this will be my last post on this particular thread.

what he has done is dangerous, but if he wants to put his head in the sand, its his business. not mine. Why someone asks for help to solve a problem, then argues with the person telling him how to fix the problem, is beyond me.

i wish i hadnt wasted my time

No, I have solved the problem and I solved it on my own and its done and working just fine. However, you guys keep claiming its dangerous and from what I understand of ohms laws and how a ground fault protector works, it only requires about a 5 milliamperes imbalance between the hot and the return in order to trip the GFCI breaker at the panel.

So if either of you "experts" can explain why in my installation that the GFCI would not function properly then I'm all ears. But waving credentials and claiming its dangerous is not helpful nor useful information. Provide specifics and I will certainly listen.

 

[aczlan]

So if either of you "experts" can explain why in my installation that the GFCI would not function properly then I'm all ears. But waving credentials and claiming its dangerous is not helpful nor useful information. Provide specifics and I will certainly listen.

Personally, I like for a GFCI to be my last line of defense, not my first. I have had GFCIs fail before (stuck on, would not trip) and I dont want to risk someone getting shocked because one failed.

Aaron Z

 

[MNBobcat]

Personally, I like for a GFCI to be my last line of defense, not my first. I have had GFCIs fail before (stuck on, would not trip) and I dont want to risk someone getting shocked because one failed.

Aaron Z

Aaron,

I agree with you about not wanting to rely on a mechanical device to save someone.

I could remove the thhn and run a direct bury 12/2 w/ground romex if there was some practical reason to do so because of needing to have the neutral and ground wires in direct proximity to the hot. My wires are probably 6 inches apart. But so far I've not heard a concise reason why I would need to do that and its a ton of work as well. What I may yet do though is go back and slide 1/2" schedule 80 pvc over the thhn wire to provide some abrasion protection and that would actually be easier than installing romex. The caveat is the sched 80 would have to be open at each end because there is only about a 1/4" crack in the block through which I can pass the wire. So really it would just be to provide abrasion protection for the bulk of the run.

As for the rest, the wires aren't in an area that will be disturbed so the depth of the wire really isn't much of a concern.

 

[ultrarunner]

Only a thought from someone that has found many defective GFCIs over the years.

Buy a quality one like Hubbell.

Just recently, a friend bought a home and in the inspector's report... every GFCI failed to function... 9 in all.

I found it hard to believe, but it was true and this home was built in 1994.

 

[teejk]

Only a thought from someone that has found many defective GFCIs over the years.Buy a quality one like Hubbell.
Just recently, a friend bought a home and in the inspector's report... every GFCI failed to function... 9 in all.
I found it hard to believe, but it was true and this home was built in 1994.

I think you will find the newer ones will "fail" in the open position (i.e. the trip button will trip for reasons unknown and the reset button will not restore it). I wired my newer residence with Pass & Seymour and have already changed one GFCI. I guess it is better that way on outdoor applications but I have to say that GFCI requirements have gotten a little silly.

 

[SPIKER]

Technically it will function HOWEVER it is NOT SAFE. Let me give you several valid reasons.

1 The insulation on THHN is not rated for direct burial, THHN is wet application yes but the outer jacket degrades & the teflon outer coating cracks rather easy. I can show you some if ya want. it cuts and cracks easily, which is why it NEEDS to be in conduit.

2. The wires NEED to be in close proximity to each other (hot & neutral) to prevent RMF & Electrical induced problems. As the current flowing down the one wire and back the other wire will create magnetic fields about the wires. This can cause static in radios and even induce galvanic corrosion in any metal running parallel with them.

3. What others are saying about GFIs being bad is common, in fact about 1 in 10 will fail closed and not trip when the (rated) miliamps flow away from them, (3, 5, 15 and 30 miliamp variations exist.) Taking a chance that you have the good ones feel free to keep trusting the.

4. Then we have the fact that just because you took the simplest and easiest way does not mean it was right. You keep arguing that you know it is not right but want to believe it is good enough. Good enough won't keep your family or new owners safe when it fails. Notice I said WHEN if fails not IF...

Mark