Dump cart on the way and need hydraulic help

[93Mustang]

Have a Country Manufacturing 2 - ton trailer on the way. I agonized over size but went with the larger one. Will pull it behind my 3320 but also want to pull it with my kubota b5200. My 3320 has the appropriate hydraulics but would like to add the ability to dump the trailer with the Kubota. Here in lies my questions:

1) what size bore should I go with? The cylinder needs to be 24" in length to work properly. The tractor puts out 4gpm at like 1600psi(not a lot). Anyone with the trailer have any experience with this?

2) what options do I have to add a 3rd svc or diverter. Looks like a single hard line runs to and away from the loader valve and a soft low pressure return is also present. Any thoughts?

Thank You - Dana

 

[oldnslo]

Dana,
On your current loader valve there appears to a port labeled "PB". This is in the 3rd picture and is the hose that comes out behind the loader support. If this is actually labeled "PB" it would be for power beyond and currently probably goes back to your 3-point hitch valve. To add rear hydraulics you would need to purchase another open center valve with power beyond capabilities and then plumb it in the following manner.

From your loader valve "PB" port to the pressure or in port on the new valve.
From the "PB" port of the new valve to your 3-point hitch valve. ( what the current PB connection goes to)
Tank on your new valve would need to teed into the tank line from your current loader valve.
"A" & "B" ports on the new valve would be for your rear remote quick disconnects used to operate the dump wagon.

 

[J_J]

Roy,

I looked at the hoses and only saw 6 hoses so I did not think that side port is PB.

93Mustang,

Can you verify 6 or 7 hoses on the loader valve?

Oops, I looked again, and there is a hose on the bottom of the valve, so that side port is probably the PB port.

You can run as many valves as you need.

AS far as what size bore, the smaller bore will give the fastest speeds, and the larger bore will give more force. and be slower.

You can also use a diverter using the curl circuit and have either curl or trailer dump.

 

[93Mustang]

Thank You very much for the responses. Couple quick questions:

1) if it is easier to manage the hoses, could I run the "in" that currently goes to the loader valve into the "in" on the new valve with new valve power beyond " out" sent to the "in" on the loader valve with new valve tank return "t"ed into the "T" return?

2) do I need fittings for for the tank return "t" or can the "t" be secured by clamps?

- Dana

 

[J_J]

In order to protect the 3rd function valve circuit, you need a relief on the 3rd function valve, and most don't have them. You could order a DO3 subplate with relief port and install it first. All ports on the sub plate are high pressure.

It would be easier to just add it after the PB out on the loader.

You could use a tee in the return line, and clamps would probably work as the pressure is low most of the time.

A single valve subplate will have 4 ports, IN, OUT, work port A, ;work port B.

The OUT of the subplate will go to the next valve IN port.

All valves in an open center hyd system should be in series, with PB feeding the next valve and so on.

 

[93Mustang]

Thank You - I was planning on using a Prince stackable 1 spool SV open center w/pb with the DA spring centered option from surplus center. It has an adjustable relief. Is that an appropriate option, regardless of whether I plumb that before or after the loader valve?
- Dana

 

[LD1]

Cant help much with the plumbing, but will try to help some with the cylinder sizing.

For starters, this is going to be difficult without any dimensions. Since it is a single cylinder, and mounted on an angle, calculating the dump force is easy, IF we had some dimensions. But I will try to do the best I can.

It appears the cylinder is on about a 18.5 degree angle. That means whatever the cylinders max force is, only about 32% of it is used in the vertical direction. Given the way the trailer is laid out, getting the load started is going to require the most force.

Then comes where the cylinder is mounted comes into play. Is it right in the center of the bed? or slightly forward or rearward? For this, I am gonna assume its right in the middle, and that you will have the trailer loaded evenly front to rear. (obviously if you pile up the front with little on the rear, it will have a harder time dumping).

So, they list a 4" x 24" cylinder being the largest you can use. So lets start there.

A 4" cylinder bore with your 1600psi to work with is 20000# of push force. Given the cylinder is on an angle, That will give you a max vertical force of ~6400#. Now you have to take the weight of the trailer into consideration......so you will likely only be able to dump ~ 5k or so when hooked to the kubota.

And assuming the JD runs ~2400psi, gives a max vertical of ~9600, and likely able to dump around 8k.

At 4gpm on the kubota, will take ~20 seconds to dump. And a little less to return.

Again, alot of assuming on my part without having dimensions of the cylinder locations. What is your goal? what is the minimum you are looking for being able to dump?

If it were mine, I'd just go with a 4 cylinder. Cause it is only going to develop enough force to dump. And they rate them for a 4" cylinder. ITs not like you can actually weigh the load as you are loading it. And I'd rather have a little too big and be a tad slower, cause a little slower dumping is still faster than unloading by hand when you realize you piled too much on for the hydraulics to dump.

 

[J_J]

Here I am thinking solenoid 3rd function, and I don't even like the 3rd function term. It is just a valve, and where you put it makes a difference.

While you are installing hyd valves, why not go ahead and order two or three spool remote valves and have QD's at the back for whatever. You might want T-N-T later and it will be there.

Everything connects up the same way, with the PB from one valve feeding the IN port of the next valve.

One spool could even control a grapple on the bucket.

One spool for trailer.

How about this setup.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct...8lFtM8nGv_rchUcrO4xvwapw&ust=1399479204033933

http://www.flickr.com/photos/37794585@N04/3587280982/in/photostream/
http://www.premium-supply.com/Images/Products/310.jpg

Google Image Result for http://www.cerka.ca/catalog/hi_images/45-SL_LINE.jpg

 

[93Mustang]

An update and a question. So I ordered the 4x24 cylinder and valve from surplus center and started to wonder whether my little 3.6 gallon hydraulic capacity on the Kubota will be enough to power the cylinder without running out - could that be a problem? Thank you for all the responses!

 

[LD1]

Once the cylinder is full, you may want to top off your Kubota. But after that, with a double acting cylinder, the only fluid change is the volume of the rod. As you pump fluid to fill the base of the cylinder, all the fluid on the rod side is returning to the tractor.

 

[93Mustang]

I wanted to provide an update to this thread as I am nearly complete with the install. New baby has slowed all progress on everything! As you will see in the picture, the valve is not yet permanantly mounted and I need to fix a clearance issue with the return to tank "T" but the dump works. I also had the lines from the trailer made way to long but I can live with that. I plan on using the Kubota to tow the trailer most of the the time, but went with the larger couplers so they are compatible with my 3320. I ran a a line from the power beyond on the loader valve to the new valve and ran the PB from the new value to to the rockshaft line on the tractor. I also "T"ed into the return to tank line used by the loader valve. Five lines in total. I designed it so I can remove the new valve and return the lines to the original setup. I think I pumped most of the fluid in the tractor into the lines! (In hind sight I probably should have done the first dump with the 3320).

Very straightforward for most of you for sure but a year ago the tractor would have been sent to the dealer for this so I really appreciate all the help I have gotten on these forums that have provided the knowledge and confidence to tackle something like this. Hydraulics are not cheap, even when doing it yourself but certainly bring a lot of satisfaction when they work. I know have a valve I can use for anything (hmmm maybe a rear snowblower for the little guy with hydraulic chute rotation..)

Regarding the trailer - it certainly was a two person job to set up as a lot of pieces are really heavy on there own and need to be held as pins/bolts are slid in. Have not used it yet beyond hauling my firewood carrier full of firewood. Was nice to be able to take the side off and load the trailer from the side with the pallet forks. My other though -frankly it is too big for my needs. This is not a criticism but my fault. I am not complaining but I should have gotten a smaller version - probably the six footer. I wanted something that my wife could tow around and throw stuff in as she gardens and the like and this trailer is way too long to maneuver easily. It also a bit big for the Kubota and has way more capacity than the Kubota can stop safely. Regardless I am excited to have the trailer and hope to find some time to use it!

 

[J_J]

I noticed something you might keep an eye on when using the trailer. Potential damage to the deck framing.

The hyd cyl is almost parallel to the deck, and with a heavy load, the cyl just might push the rod connection point angle iron brace back to the rear.

Typically, you want the base end of the cyl about 10 to 15 degrees below the horizontal line.

I do hope it works for you as is.

 

[chevy]

I noticed something you might keep an eye on when using the trailer. Potential damage to the deck framing.

The hyd cyl is almost parallel to the deck, and with a heavy load, the cyl just might push the rod connection point angle iron brace back to the rear.

Typically, you want the base end of the cyl about 10 to 15 degrees below the horizontal line.

I do hope it works for you as is.

The cylinder has the required angle. The bed frame sets several inches above the main frame.

 

[J_J]

93Mustang ,

Would it be possible for you to take a picture of the cyl and bed fully down.

This is not my drawing, but it is close to the way I think the cyl should be mounted.

OT: calculating capacity for a dump bed

http://home.earthlink.net/~a_wake/dumpbed.pdf

You need more than a couple of inches.