So much for a Nissan Leaf!

[woodlandfarms]

So back on the patent release by Tesla. Was intrigued by so many negative responses. Could not imagine Elon had made a bad move, the boy is friggin smart.

Well, he made a brilliant move it appears. What he did was last year he began working on a MASSIVE battery manufacturing plant. Well, you only sell so many Teslas what do you need this plant for? The answer is that he opened a bunch of his patents to other car manufacturers and they came to him, in droves. Nissan is now in talks with Tesla to use their battery and charging systems. Elon is building all these "charging and battery stations" all over the US (well, west coast right now). But if Nissan, BMW, Ford use his systems for batteries, can you imagine the profit?

Elon Musk’s radical patent strategy for Tesla is already paying off – Quartz

Elon Musk Releases Tesla Patents - L.A. Driver - Los Angeles magazine

 

[dave1949]

So back on the patent release by Tesla. Was intrigued by so many negative responses. Could not imagine Elon had made a bad move, the boy is friggin smart.

Well, he made a brilliant move it appears. What he did was last year he began working on a MASSIVE battery manufacturing plant. Well, you only sell so many Teslas what do you need this plant for? The answer is that he opened a bunch of his patents to other car manufacturers and they came to him, in droves. Nissan is now in talks with Tesla to use their battery and charging systems. Elon is building all these "charging and battery stations" all over the US (well, west coast right now). But if Nissan, BMW, Ford use his systems for batteries, can you imagine the profit?

Elon Musk’s radical patent strategy for Tesla is already paying off – Quartz

Elon Musk Releases Tesla Patents - L.A. Driver - Los Angeles magazine

Contrary to the opinions of people who knee-jerk reject anything to do with 'green', it appears to be a good, strategic move. EV is not going to happen unless someone can find ways to make money in the process. Musk has to make money to be committed to green strategies, that's reality.

 

[sseelhoff]

So back on the patent release by Tesla. Was intrigued by so many negative responses. Could not imagine Elon had made a bad move, the boy is friggin smart.

Well, he made a brilliant move it appears. What he did was last year he began working on a MASSIVE battery manufacturing plant. Well, you only sell so many Teslas what do you need this plant for? The answer is that he opened a bunch of his patents to other car manufacturers and they came to him, in droves. Nissan is now in talks with Tesla to use their battery and charging systems. Elon is building all these "charging and battery stations" all over the US (well, west coast right now). But if Nissan, BMW, Ford use his systems for batteries, can you imagine the profit?

Elon Musk痴 radical patent strategy for Tesla is already paying off Quartz

Elon Musk Releases Tesla Patents - L.A. Driver - Los Angeles magazine

By opening his patents on battery technology, he's avoiding the VHS/Betamax issue. VHS won and Betamax went by the wayside. If there isn't a consistent industry standard for battery and charging technology, it runs the risk of creating confusion and competition in the market, and Tesla is not equipped to fight that battle against the established automakers.

The battery factory (Gigawat) has not yet been built. He is still being courted by several states (CA, NV, TX) to locate the plant within those states. That's one of the reasons Gov. Rick Perry has been traveling to CA. He's courting Tesla hard to get that facility.

 

[DarkBlack]

Here's the facts showing a Nissan Leaf charged by an oil electric generation plant also pollutes more than a direct gas engine car. It's not just coal plants.

Lets start by looking at CO2 which is a gas greenies love to pedestal:

1) Gasoline economy car getting 40 MPG. After 40 miles: 1 gallon gas burned =19.64lb CO2

2) Nissan Leaf EPA tested 34 Kwh electicity / 100 miles. Convert to 40 miles
0.4 * 34 Kwh = 13.6 Kwh used in 40 miles

Per the EPA site:
The average emissions rates in the United States from oil-fired generation are:
1672 lbs/MWh of carbon dioxide, 12 lbs/MWh of sulfur dioxide, and 4 lbs/MWh of nitrogen oxides

Convert to Mwh to Kwh: 1,672 lbs/MWh / 1000 = 1.672 lb CO2 per Kwh
1.672 lb CO2/Kwh * 13.6 Kwh needed to go 40 miles = 22.74 lb CO2

That's 22.74 lb CO2 from the electric plant to go the same 40 miles the gasoline engine car does with 19.64 lb CO2
The electric battery car pollutes almost 16% more! And that's not even adding electric losses!!

Myth BUSTED AGAIN!
And to think, you actually get special treatment for a battery car which actually pollutes the air more!:thumbsdown:

 

[Loren49]

Here's the facts showing a Nissan Leaf charged by an oil electric generation plant also pollutes more than a direct gas engine car. It's not just coal plants.

Lets start by looking at CO2 which is a gas greenies love to pedestal:

1) Gasoline economy car getting 40 MPG. After 40 miles: 1 gallon gas burned =19.64lb CO2

2) Nissan Leaf EPA tested 34 Kwh electicity / 100 miles. Convert to 40 miles
0.4 * 34 Kwh = 13.6 Kwh used in 40 miles

Per the EPA site:
The average emissions rates in the United States from oil-fired generation are:
1672 lbs/MWh of carbon dioxide, 12 lbs/MWh of sulfur dioxide, and 4 lbs/MWh of nitrogen oxides

Convert to Mwh to Kwh: 1,672 lbs/MWh / 1000 = 1.672 lb CO2 per Kwh
1.672 lb CO2/Kwh * 13.6 Kwh needed to go 40 miles = 22.74 lb CO2

That's 22.74 lb CO2 from the electric plant to go the same 40 miles the gasoline engine car does with 19.64 lb CO2
The electric battery car pollutes almost 16% more! And that's not even adding electric losses!!

Myth BUSTED AGAIN!
And to think, you actually get special treatment for a battery car which actually pollutes the air more!:thumbsdown:

Fuel efficiency - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

An average North American mid-size car travels 21 mpg (US) (11 L/100 km) city, 27 mpg (US) (9 L/100 km) highway; a full-size SUV usually travels 13 mpg (US) (18 L/100 km) city and 16 mpg (US) (15 L/100 km) highway. Pickup trucks vary considerably; whereas a 4 cylinder-engined light pickup can achieve 28 mpg (8 L/100 km), a V8 full-size pickup with extended cabin only travels 13 mpg (US) (18 L/100 km) city and 15 mpg (US) (15 L/100 km) highway.

If you run the numbers using the average passenger car mileage, CO2 emissions aren't close. If electricity is from solar, hydro or nuclear it is not a myth. If you run numbers on the pickups that many choose to use as a car it is not a myth.

Loren

 

[DarkBlack]

You can't really be that slow on the uptake, or are you? I already explained this ( post 429).

I've shown that a modern fuel efficient gasoline engine car will have a good chance that it pollutes less than a new battery car. What about that don't you understand??

When they come out with a battery pickup truck that can tow a trailer, I'll do the #'s and compare them. Pretty simple actually.

 

[DarkBlack]

I think any of you people who buy a battery car because you truly want to help the planet, should first find out what power plants are actually powering your cars, and then do the numbers. The information is out there.
You might very well calculate, and decide a fuel efficient 3 or 4 cylinder engine car is actually 'greener'.

 

[BobRip]

I didn't assume all electricity comes from coal. In fact I never said that. I responded to a poster who claimed my earlier post was "so wrong", that even a coal plant was cleaner.

I'm glad you brought up the 40 mpg reference I used. I thought this one over, and I think it's actually the fairest comparison. 40MPG gas car technology vehicles are readily available today, and quite cheap.They represent the most equivocal comparison to a limited function battery car. It would certainly not be a very sound scientific comparison to compare a much more capable large gas vehicle like a pickup truck to the minimalistic battery car, as their capabilities are so vastly different.

This is not unreasonable. I am hoping that with all of the emphasis on electric cars that batteries and gasoline engines and diesels engines get better. Nothing beats competition to improve things. I am a believer in all of the above. Many of these will fail. Money will be wasted on dead end products, but better products will be developed. There is no success without many failures. If you don't understand this try to develop a new and unique product. Also remember how many lightbulb designs Edison developed. Almost all failed.

 

[Loren49]

]You can't really be that slow on the uptake, or are you?[/B] I already explained this ( post 429).

I've shown that a modern fuel efficient gasoline engine car will have a good chance that it pollutes less than a new battery car. What about that don't you understand??

When they come out with a battery pickup truck that can tow a trailer, I'll do the #'s and compare them. Pretty simple actually.

No good reason to be condescending! Its easy to get muddy when you throw it around.

Many choose to drive the truck or powerful SUV and do not tow trailers or need its excess power to a level that its extra cost/pollution/waste is justified which we have by finances alone. It is a choice just as the all electric car is a choice. It is reasonable to choose an all electric for reasons other than its pollution level versus a 40 mpg gas/diesel vehicle. By supporting the electric vehicle it is reasonable to believe that more resources will be available for research in this area. It is also reasonable to remind readers that the average mpg on US passenger vehicles is much less than 40 mpg.

Its fine that you ran the numbers but the from my post #418:
Electric Vehicles: Myths vs. Reality | Electric Vehicle Guide

Myth 1: Switching to an electric vehicle will just mean that the same amount of pollution comes from the electricity generation rather than from the tailpipe — I'll just be switching from oil to coal.

Reality: According to a range of studies doing a ‘well to wheels’ analysis, an electric car leads to significantly less carbon dioxide pollution from electricity than the CO2 pollution from the oil of a conventional car with an internal combustion engine.[1][2][3] In some areas, like many on the West Coast that rely largely on wind or hydro power, the emissions are significantly lower for EVs. And that's today. As we retire more coal plants and bring cleaner sources of power online, the emissions from electric vehicle charging drop even further. Additionally, in some areas, night-time charging will increase the opportunity to take advantage of wind power -- another way to reduce emissions.

A caveat to consider is that when coal plants supply the majority of the power in a given area, electric vehicles may emit more CO2 and SO2 pollution than hybrid electric vehicles. Learn where your electricity comes from, what plans your state or community has for shifting to renewables, and whether you have options for switching to greener power

The site also states that those who purchase EVs should research the source of their electricity if their motivation is pollution reduction.


I felt that you were "cherry picking" the 40 mpg even with your explanation. A first step we can take if pollution is a concern is to consider the size and efficiency of our mode of transportation. One thing I could do is to have my morning coffee at home instead of a 20 mile round trip to the Diner. I often go to the diner with my 36-38 mpg auto.

Loren

 

[dave1949]

Calculating coal vs oil vs electric emissions is all nonsense to begin with, and partial calculations that don't include all-in costs are worthless.

The over-riding goal is to find a way to provide a significant portion of transportation needs using methods with much lower carbon footprints.

Hydrocarbon-based fuels, in the fuel tank or burned for electric generation, will never achieve a low carbon footprint without significant additional costs and some fancy bio-chemical engineering. Even if that happens, you still have to face the question of the sustainability of the hydrocarbon extraction, refining and distribution processes, the various flavors of mines and wells--which are generally ruinous and extremely expensive to mediate.

Re-charging EV's with hydrocarbon-based electric generation fuels is a step along the way to the future. It is logical that it is happening, but it is not the eventual goal.

Over the long term:
Battery technology will continue to improve.
Solar and wind will continue to supplant coal, oil and gas in the grid.
Solar will continue to replace grid power with home power.
The economics of carbon will push people to leave their pickup or SUV parked unless it is really needed.
Get over it.