So much for a Nissan Leaf!

[sseelhoff]

Just saw this . Does not apply to america as cost of auto ownership is quite different but an interesting read

BBC News - Electric cars 'to cost more to run than petrol vehicles'

Thanks for the article. It seems to me that there is a flaw in the analysis. The cost of operation is based on the comparison between the cost of privately owned and operated rapid charge stations and a gallon of diesel. Kind of a false comparison-you can charge your EV at home from a home based station, but not many people have home based diesel refineries. Nor do many stores or businesses offer free diesel, but they do have free recharging stations. The article itself states that the rapid charge stations are intended for "occasional use."

BUT, you do have to factor in the additional cost of the car and the additional cost of the home charging station into the lifetime operating costs of the vehicle, which this analysis failed to do. I have yet to see any analysis of lifetime maintenance costs between a combustion engine and an EV. Curious to see how that stacks up.

 

[DarkBlack]

I disagree. It's not a "false comparison" at all.
It compares bringing a battery car to a commercial electrical refill station- to bringing a petro car to a commercial petro refill station.
It's actually a very good comparison.

 

[sseelhoff]

I disagree. It's not a "false comparison" at all.
It compares bringing a battery car to a commercial electrical refill station- to bringing a petro car to a commercial petro refill station.
It's actually a very good comparison.

But "occasional use" of a commercial charging station is not the same as continual use of a petrol station. You can operate the EV its entire life without every visiting a commercial charging station. You cannot say the same about a combustion engine and petrol stations. If the vehicle was only charged at the commercial charging station during its life, it's a fair comparison. But that's not how these vehicles are primarily charged.
It is a stretch to state that the operating costs are 7.5 pounds versus 6.30 pounds per 60 miles to operate an EV 60 miles when most of time, you will be paying a kilowatt hour charge from your home or office meter.

 

[houstonscott]

The main thing is the most inefficient thing you could possibly do with your fuel is to change it into electricity then put it into a battery then take it out to use in an electric car. That is crazy inefficient, modern cars are one of the most efficient fuel burning machines ever conceived, and are far more clean than any power plant. Electric cars can never match burning the fuel in the vehicle directly, it's not possible. HS

 

[dave1949]

Just saw this . Does not apply to america as cost of auto ownership is quite different but an interesting read

BBC News - Electric cars 'to cost more to run than petrol vehicles'

DarkBlack: So, if someone wrote an article saying soft drinks cost more at the local Gulp & Go than they do at your grocery store, should we measure the cost of soft drinks strictly by Gulp & Go pricing? Convenience and service has a price, no matter the product.

Like many, I could drive an EV to do my local running around and never need a public charging station. That's the point that matters, and as sseelhoff said, I can optionally generate solar electricity at home but I'll never have an oil or gas well as an option, or my own private refinery.

Would I drive an EV to visit family 1000 miles away in Ohio? No, but I don't drive my tractor to the grocery store either.

 

[Loren49]

The main thing is the most inefficient thing you could possibly do with your fuel is to change it into electricity then put it into a battery then take it out to use in an electric car. That is crazy inefficient, modern cars are one of the most efficient fuel burning machines ever conceived, and are far more clean than any power plant. Electric cars can never match burning the fuel in the vehicle directly, it's not possible. HS

Unless the fuel is sunlight or wind. :confused2:

Loren

 

[sseelhoff]

The main thing is the most inefficient thing you could possibly do with your fuel is to change it into electricity then put it into a battery then take it out to use in an electric car. That is crazy inefficient, modern cars are one of the most efficient fuel burning machines ever conceived, and are far more clean than any power plant. Electric cars can never match burning the fuel in the vehicle directly, it's not possible. HS

Here are the questions I have that need to be addressed before reaching your conclusion:

What is the average charge of an EV in KW? What is range of an EV vehicle on a full charge? What is the average fuel spend to create those KWs to charge the vehicle?

Alternately, what is the fuel spend to create the comparable petroleum product (gas or diesel) to take the average vehicle that same distance?

As a secondary issue, what is the emission burden to create those KWs versus the emission burden to produce the comparable supply of petrol?

Those are the questions that would create a fair comparison, IMHO. I don't know these answers, but would be interested in learning. I use averages, because as others have pointed out, electricity comes from a variety of sources-wind/solar/natural gas/hydro/coal.

The other question I have is why people are so ANTI EV. I can see "not interested in purchasing", but the hostility to the technology surprises me. (For the record, I'm in the not interested in purchasing category-I live to far from anywhere for the technology to make sense). But if they are right for someone else's lifestyle, who am I to care what they do?

 

[houstonscott]

Here are the questions I have that need to be addressed before reaching your conclusion: What is the average charge of an EV in KW? What is range of an EV vehicle on a full charge? What is the average fuel spend to create those KWs to charge the vehicle? Alternately, what is the fuel spend to create the comparable petroleum product (gas or diesel) to take the average vehicle that same distance? As a secondary issue, what is the emission burden to create those KWs versus the emission burden to produce the comparable supply of petrol? Those are the questions that would create a fair comparison, IMHO. I don't know these answers, but would be interested in learning. I use averages, because as others have pointed out, electricity comes from a variety of sources-wind/solar/natural gas/hydro/coal. The other question I have is why people are so ANTI EV. I can see "not interested in purchasing", but the hostility to the technology surprises me. (For the record, I'm in the not interested in purchasing category-I live to far from anywhere for the technology to make sense). But if they are right for someone else's lifestyle, who am I to care what they do?

The hostility comes from the hoax motive to bring them to market, the idea that you are saving anything by using them is ludicrous. HS

 

[Loren49]

The hostility comes from the hoax motive to bring them to market, the idea that you are saving anything by using them is ludicrous. HS

There are many minds thinking outside your box.
2006 MIT Research
Making Electric Vehicles Practical | MIT Technology Review

A somewhat optimistic analysis:
Combining Solar Power and Your Electric Vehicle -- Too Practical to Pass Up (Reader Comment) | CleanTechnica

"A small, 1.2-kilowatt solar system priced at around $4,000 will cover charging costs for an electric vehicle for up to 40 years.

For $4,000 you can buy your fuel for the next 40 years.

For the next forty years you will be producing the power for your EV for $8.33 a month. Those are fixed dollars, not dollars that will rise with inflation, the $8.33 per month is locked in.

The $185 per month that ICEV owners will be paying for gas?



Costly, toxic and slow to charge? Busting electric car myths

20 February 2014, 3.14am GMT
Costly, toxic and slow to charge? Busting electric car myths

CLAIM: They'remore polluting than modern petrol cars

According to most studies, emissions of the most fuel-efficient new petrol cars are on par with average power generation emissions for electric cars charging from the é›»irty grid in most countries (predominantly using power from burning coal and gas).

However, electric cars can be driven completely emission-free in a number of ways. These include home-owners charging their vehicle from a solar PV system; paying for green power through an electricity retailer; or charging at an electric vehicle charging station that either has direct solar PV feed-in (much like our UWA/REV installation of EMC Solar in West Perth, shown above) or that is offset with grid-connected solar PVs.

As this article on The Conversation pointed out, public charging usage is almost exclusively during sunshine hours.

Another opportunity for electric cars to increase the amount of renewables on the grid is the use of wind energy at night. Wind energy can often not be used at night due to lower energy demand and base-load requirements of conventional power plants. If a large number of electric cars were to charge at night, existing renewable wind energy could be used instead of being wasted.

As for air pollution, widespread adoption of electric cars would significantly improve air quality within our cities.


There are many good reasons for the choice to own an EV. The Hoax is an opinion. Many very useful innovations have come one step at a time. The first airplanes and hours and dollars invested could have been ridiculed by many as where the first motorized vehicles. Something will replace the internal combustion engine. Its really ok! It's a good thing to be progressive and innovative.

Loren

 

[DarkBlack]

Unless the fuel is sunlight or wind. :confused2:

Loren

Loren, you'd do well to not try to push people on wind, (someone like me, for example ) as the real #'s are pretty sad. Solar... that's possible. Even recent proponent of major wind designs are reeling from recent reality numbers. You can't run a country on when and IF the wind decides to blow.